The Fall of The Cavaliers

[Hrothgar15]

Let me preface by saying that I don't mean this as a personal attack in any way: It seems to me, though, that any inability to hear melody is the fault of the listener, not the corps. How can you not hear melody in Four Corners, in Frameworks, in Spin Cycle? I'm not trying to say anythign about your musicianship or anything like that, but maybe for some reason you're not allowing yourself to enjoy the music.

But they're not full, well-developed, maturely written melodies, just tiny four-note motifs. Gimme a corps that'll go out and play

or maybe a

Heck, even

will do.

But do I really want to hear a one-second long

repeated ad infinitum in various different forms yielding to very little musical development? No thank you.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Hrothgar15

[this_guy]

Neat! I didn't know you could insert images like that!

On the flip-side (and yes, I'm biased!) I'm not a big fan of hearing all theme and no DEVELOPMENT.

Ah yes...any of your well-trained musical ears remember that word from your undergrad?

What I dig about Saucedo's music is his exquisite use of MOTIVE. These motives are all over the place (easily evident in Frameworks and Spin Cycle) they are often melodic motives, but just as often harmonic motives and rhythmic motives make appearances to make the show flow (in my humble, musically-educated opinion) effortlessly from one idea to the next.

Let's add that to some of the most complex and sophisticated tone colors produced on the drum corps field, and a score that lends itself beautifully to Gaines' visual ideas, and I've been made a fan of the Cavaliers' musical programming.

Different strokes for different folks, as has been stated before...

[dbc03]

Well I have been away doing MEPS testing(yeah 31Bravo!!) so I'm sorry I missed out on this topic.

I think the root of this post is the same as the root of a lot of posts just like this.

People don't like that the visual caption is starting to get the credit it deserves. Sure they sugar coat this topics with "I know the Cavies have had an awesome visual program but..."

Why can't a corps decide which formula it wants to use to go for success?? If a corps wants to do a highly musical show, let them. And if a corps wants to do a highly visual show, let them as well. And if a corps wants to do a good mixture of the two(like the cavies) let them too. So many people seem really stuck in this "music is more important" mindset. And I think they need to take a long look at drum corps as a whole.

This is a musical and visual activity. It is not a symphony. Shows are not designed with a good CD in mind. Shows are designed to be performed and views LIVE in a STADIUM with the visual and music EQUALLY contributing to the show. And that idea seems lost on a lot of people. Maybe in the past visual programs were not much of a focus, so a lot of fans may be used to music-centered shows. But things are moving away from that. And the Cavies are at the forefront. I hate to sound like a hater, but the days of standing still for 100+ counts while just playing music are long over. Visual has come into it's own and it's about time people start acknowledging that. Complete and intergrated PROGRAMS are where it's at now.

People rip on the Cavies for doing shows based off shapes or colors. In WGI, this are usually called "concept shows". And they are quite popular. But so are other shows. Maybe because WGI Percussion is younger and there are not so many time-honored stereotypes about shows, but WGI seems to have a wide variety of shows that are all appreciated. I do wish that WGI had the same 50/50 music/visual scoring as DCI. Both circuits can learn a lot from each other. Hopefully WGI will start appreciating and rewarding the visual half of a show and maybe DCI fans can move out of their boxes and try to appreciate shows that are not all from the exact same mold.

I think that our point is that we don't believe that the Cavies are not a "good mixture of the two", instead they are in the "highly visual show" category instead. We WANT a good mixture of the two, but the Cavaliers aren't doing it for us.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I think that our point is that we don't believe that the Cavies are not a "good mixture of the two", instead they are in the "highly visual show" category instead. We WANT a good mixture of the two, but the Cavaliers aren't doing it for us.

And like Matt and some others have said, not hearing the melody or "goodmusicness" of recent cavies shows is as much the fault and closemindedness of the listener as it is the Cavies music staff. People just want to hear the same tired jazz/broadway/classical/latin shows that we have been listening to for 30+ years. And anyone who tries to step out of the "Drum Corps' List of Approved Music Selections" box, gets shot down for "not being accesable to the fans".

Edited June 29, 2006 by G-Cym

[nero14]

i'm gonna be honest- saw them in sevierville- and i really did not care for their stand-still performance of the show music-- very reserved, timid, extreemly effect driven- more so than any other corps in DCI by a wide margin- i just think they've really gotten so far away from playing songs and progressed to doing 11 minutes of cool effects- i just didnt even know what i was hearing- NO DOUBT their visuals are amazing and the show would have made much more sense if it had been marched- but i mean... shouldnt a music only performance still make some sense and be fun to listen to? i kinda think so- spirit, cadets, and cap reg all achieved that easily- why is that so hard for cavies?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

shouldnt a music only performance still make some sense and be fun to listen to? i kinda think so- spirit, cadets, and cap reg all achieved that easily- why is that so hard for cavies?

It's not hard for them. They just choose to design their shows with the actual purpose of drum corps in mind. And that is, for a show to be viewed in a stadium with music, drill, and guard work. They write complete programs. And when part of that is missing, it makes less sense. But they are still writing to the overall goal of marching and playing a show at Finals. Not just making some cool music to put on a CD. And this is one of the reasons why Cavies are so successful. A lot of other corps pay so little attention to the design of the visual program. They choose a show baesed nearly completly on the music selections, and write some random drill that is completely unrealted to the show. And they suffer for it, as they should. Cavies intergrate all the aspects of their shows from design to Finals, and are rewarded, as they should be.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

shouldnt a music only performance still make some sense and be fun to listen to? i kinda think so- spirit, cadets, and cap reg all achieved that easily- why is that so hard for cavies?

It's not hard for them. They just choose to design their shows with the actual purpose of drum corps in mind. And that is, for a show to be viewed in a stadium with music, drill, and guard work. They write complete programs. And when part of that is missing, it makes less sense. But they are still writing to the overall goal of marching and playing a show at Finals. Not just making some cool music to put on a CD. And this is one of the reasons why Cavies are so successful. A lot of other corps pay so little attention to the design of the visual program. They choose a show baesed nearly completly on the music selections, and write some random drill that is completely unrealted to the show. And they suffer for it, as they should. Cavies intergrate all the aspects of their shows from design to Finals, and are rewarded, as they should be.

So to answer your question, No, a music only performance should not be anywhere on a priority list. Music only shows are unfortunate and inevitable, but they are also irrelevant to the real format and pupose of the season(marching, playing, guard). Corps that take their eyes off the goal at the end tend not to do so well in the real game.

Let me reiterate one more time. Drum corps is a competition in which the visual program and musical program are judged equally and on how well they are related. That is the sinlge most important thing for a show designer to have in mind. Anything else(a good standstill on a rainy day, something for fans to whistle, cutting a good CD) is SECONDARY. Corps that write with that in mind are successful.

Edited June 29, 2006 by G-Cym

[dbc03]

And like Matt and some others have said, not hearing the melody or "goodmusicness" of recent cavies shows is as much the fault and closemindedness of the listener as it is the Cavies music staff. People just want to hear the same tired jazz/broadway/classical/latin shows that we have been listening to for 30+ years. And anyone who tries to step out of the "Drum Corps' List of Approved Music Selections" box, gets shot down for "not being accesable to the fans".

So now NOT liking Cavies makes me close minded... ok

[Morgoth Bauglir]

So now NOT liking Cavies makes me close minded... ok

No, not specifically you. But anyone who has this "RAWR I'm a dinosaur...Shows should be about good ol songs I can tap my foot to" mindset is close minded.

1$ to the son of Feanor for the dinosaur thing:P

Edited June 29, 2006 by G-Cym

[dbc03]

It's not hard for them. They just choose to design their shows with the actual purpose of drum corps in mind. And that is, for a show to be viewed in a stadium with music, drill, and guard work. They write complete programs. And when part of that is missing, it makes less sense. But they are still writing to the overall goal of marching and playing a show at Finals. Not just making some cool music to put on a CD. And this is one of the reasons why Cavies are so successful. A lot of other corps pay so little attention to the design of the visual program. They choose a show baesed nearly completly on the music selections, and write some random drill that is completely unrealted to the show. And they suffer for it, as they should. Cavies intergrate all the aspects of their shows from design to Finals, and are rewarded, as they should be.

Well, their music is still boring with the drill, so they aren't achieving that goal in my opinion.

Cool drill and gimmicks are fine, but if I'm so bored with the music that I have trouble paying attention there is something wrong and the effect of the visual program is lost.

So to answer your question, No, a music only performance should not be anywhere on a priority list. Music only shows are unfortunate and inevitable, but they are also irrelevant to the real format and pupose of the season(marching, playing, guard). Corps that take their eyes off the goal at the end tend not to do so well in the real game.

Tell that to the 2005 World Champions who had about 10 extra songs in their book for just such an occasion as a standstill performance. They seemed to come out ok in the real game.