Judging gripes by corps directors

[dbc03]

Fiedler, Gibbs, Seidling, Glasgow, et. al. don't complain in public. Hopkins does. What makes his argument valid? That would seem to say that the judges' argument (the given score) is not valid.

Validity does not imply correctness.

Both the judges and George can have valid arguments that contradict each other.

[Storkysr]

Didn't your corps ever complain about stuff like that in your junior days?

We did (see sig)

Mike,

Yeah we did. I remember aspiring to beat you guys in '71 with your "theme" show. I kinda liked it. Didn't much care for the costumes and other props of the Cavies and Scouts that year, though. My big problem is pushing the "envelope" until it breaks with the use of absurd gigantic props and especially...ELECTRONICS OF ANY KIND! I have taught my share of high scool bands and I certainly don't object to woodwinds or even electronics in that context. I simply believe that we are perverting a beautiful idiom beyond evolution when they are applied to drum corps. Those that wish to use this instrumentation should start their own movement ("Show-Bands" or whatever), but please don't call it Drum & Bugle Corps.

OK, thanks for letting me spout my prehistoric rantings. I respect musical programs of almost any kind when they undertaken with diligence and integrity. Just don't fix something that ain't broken!

[TommySopranoContra]

Haha this turned out to be a philosophical discussion.

He's expressing something in his blog. Seems valid, it is his blog though, public or not.

[Hrothgar15]

Haha this turned out to be a philosophical discussion.

He's expressing something in his blog. Seems valid, it is his blog though, public or not.

I agree, it's his own blog, he can say whatever he wants on it, and no one's forcing you to read it.

Tommy, I'm just curious, what does the 2004-2011 in your sig mean? Obviously you're not marching this year as you're posting on DCP...same with last year. What gives? I assume 2011 would be your age-out year if you marched, but seriously, pretending that you've marched when you really haven't is disrespectful to all of those who actually did march.

[JMS0527]

I also found this statement to be quite ironic:

He must have forgotten 2003 DCI quarterfinals. The Cadets finished 5th in color guard, nine tenths from the top. They were also fifth in ensemble visual, 1.3 from the top in that caption. If I recall correctly, he went off on the judges afterwards, specifically William Chumley the ensemble visual judge, and I'm pretty sure he was banned from the stadium for semifinals.

I seem to remember him not being happy that Jennifer Gilley was the guard judge at quarterfinals

[mobrien]

Live with subjective judging, you'll face the potential of dying with subjective judging. And yes, complaining about judges in a well-publicized blog is unprofessional, and should be dealt with by the judging community how they see fit. ^0^

[Piper]

A good idea might be to let the judges and instructors hash it out, and keep the directors out of that portion of the picture. I've seen directors and judges go at it before and it's never been pretty, because they both tend to have that SCV "Feathers UP!" outlook. To a director, they're standing up for their kids. To a judge, they're standing up for their integrity. That's "Nitro & Shake". A bad combination. Better to keep them seperated. Just a thought.

[JMS0527]

George, I'm so sorry you're so upset about your scores...

Here's a thought....if you want the scores you think you deserve, why don't you have the kids go out and earn them everytime they're on that field...don't blame the "questionable" numbers from the judge...it's not their problem..it's yours and yours alone

[rut-roh]

And suppose we did? Suppose by virtue of blog, DCP, email or some other modern miracle, Gibbs, Fieldler and other directors shared with all of us their responses to the judges in a timely fashion. Would drum corps and we drum corps fans be worse off?

I doubt it.

I've thought about this for about an hour or so, and honestly, YES, I think the activity would be worse off for it. Maybe not on the immediate surface, but underneath, structurally, I think it is nothing but bad for the activity. It's bad when one director does it, it would be even worse if all the directors do it.

To clarify, it's not that I don't think he (or any director) has the right to question the judges or their decisions. It's not that I don't think he has the right to disagree with certain aspects of the judging system as a whole. He may even dislike certain judges, and flat out think they're crazy for giving his corps the numbers they do. My problem with this whole thing is the online (and yes, it is public) venue he is choosing for airing his concerns, criticisms, etc.

To me, it all comes down to base level professionalism and utilizing the proper forums to address your concerns. In this activity, every staff member and director has come across a judging decision they do not agree with. There is a system set up that allows them to address those concerns directly to the people who can do something about it. The proper forum to discuss, debate, and sometimes even argue about a specific judge's opinion is in critique. With the judge. Face to face. Or with the judging supervisor. That is the professional avenue one should take when addressing those specific concerns. NOT by posting your comments online.

Sure, it's sometimes uncomfortable when the content is critical (and to be fair to Hopkins - I know, a rare commodity around here - his criticism was surely no worse than mild). But imagine how much richer we'd be with the shared knowledge and impressions of Hopkins' peers.

I don't necessarily disagree. It would be nice to hear more of what goes on in the inside, behind the scenes. And there are certainly big picture issues that I would love to hear more about from the directors of DCI. But in the case of a specific judge's decision about a specific performance, I think there are more appropriate avenues by which to address those concerns.

Hopkins deserves our compliments for honesty, if nothing else.

So do the judges whose decisions he disagrees with. Which is why most other directors who have issues with the judges deal with them in a more appropriate manner, with the people who have direct control over the issues being discussed.

[MikeM]

Ah yes, Hoppy strikes again.

Bringing more attention to himself.

He may be entitled to free speech, but he's still subject to DCI's rules and regulations. If *I* ran DCI, I'd be on the phone to him wanting to know why he posted what he did, and would consider sanctions against him.

That being said, I understand he's frustrated. However, rants like what he posted should stay in the critique room.

*IF* he had said "I'm frustrated that the judging community doesn't understand the concept of our show, and I'm not sure what we're not doing to convey it to them." or something along those lines in his blog, we wouldn't have this thread.