Binghamton NY scores

[spcbrass]

Given the current trend of parking soloists for the entire show, I'm not sure that is really the case anymore.

You are just jealous because they made you march the whole show! :P

[Fran Haring]

My opinion is that too much of this activity has become a visual focus, and now when you do hear of someone "pushing the envelope" or "raising the bar" it is often in this context. There has been some virtuostic playing out there not just by soloists but by entire music ensembles as well. And this great playing I feel is not getting the credit it deserves, unless there is some simultaneous physical demand (visual demad) to go along with it. Not even the DCI corps are doing this. Is this really a standard we want to hold ourselves to?

It really should be about the performace and maxing out the performace, visually and musically. It may get to a level where it is very good, but what do we stive for...very difficult and close...or a level that is achievable closer to perfection? We don't have the kind of time the Jr's do to go out and achieve that kind of perfection, so why beef up a show with high demands that shows "intent" instad of performing a show that the personnel are capable of achieving at a high level while exhibiting a lower level of demand?

I agree 100 percent. If visual demand becomes more of the emphasis for all-age corps, then I think that part of the activity will be moving in the wrong direction.

IMO, the best visual shows I've seen done by all-age corps have involved a high level of creative staging and coordination of musical and visual elements, that give the musicians in those corps a chance to show what they can do. NOT all-out physical demand for the sake of demand.

(Heck, based on what I saw the other night in Warrenton, VA, even several of the top junior corps are struggling to execute their high-demand visual shows, and those guys rehearse virtually every day of the week during the season.)

I'm NOT saying all-age corps need to do stand-around drills and everyone play "Come to Jesus in whole notes"....but all-age corps also need to acknowledge that they do have some common-sense limitations, particularly in terms of rehearsal time.

Bottom line....all-age is a unique, refreshing part of the drum corps activity, and I look forward to the future!

Fran

[Jeff Ream]

I do respect Jeff, he is a very good judge and I have had nothing but postive input from him in the past. Unfortunately I feel he is the exception and not the rule. I have had far more bad experiences then good before. I've had tapes incosistent with numbers, spreads that were way too small (and large), and spoken with folks that just con't seem to grasp certain concepts.

I will not cite specific examples publicly, as that shows a lack of class and respect. I will not discuss them privately unless I am in a face to face, one on one situation with someone, that way my words will not be misconstrued as offensive or negative.

My opinion is that too much of this activity has become a visual focus, and now when you do hear of someone "pushing the envelope" or "raising the bar" it is often in this context. There has been some virtuostic playing out there not just by soloists but by entire music ensembles as well. And this great playing I feel is not getting the credit it deserves, unless there is some simultaneous physical demand (visual demad) to go along with it. Not even the DCI corps are doing this. Is this really a standard we want to hold ourselves to?

It really should be about the performace and maxing out the performace, visually and musically. It may get to a level where it is very good, but what do we stive for...very difficult and close...or a level that is achievable closer to perfection? We don't have the kind of time the Jr's do to go out and achieve that kind of perfection, so why beef up a show with high demands that shows "intent" instad of performing a show that the personnel are capable of achieving at a high level while exhibiting a lower level of demand?

After all when you pop in your DVD in November with your family which would you rather say...Look at how hard this is...or...Look at how great we performed?

You decide.

i'd rather say "look how great we performed that hard ####!"

[Jeff Ream]

You are just jealous because they made you march the whole show! :P

yeah but think of what parking him could have done for the visual scores :P

ask Stansfield :P

[spcbrass]

yeah but think of what parking him could have done for the visual scores :P

ask Stansfield :P

Why do you think we parked him!

b**bs

[Tom D'Bomb]

Well, with all due respect...

PURE HERSCHMANIAN MULARKY!!!!!

Where is this vacuum in which you live? Take me to this vacuum. I wish to learn more about the vacuum of which you speak.

And who judges in this vacuum? What sort of Mammoth Brain Cells roam this vacuum? How can you find so many Enormous Frontal Lobes with Feet to judge in such a vacuum?

.....My first post on this topic was a response to comments that the DCA race was getting tighter, when in fact the spead between Bucs and Empire is actually getting bigger. Maybe someone was referring to the slot between Bucs and Empire that they're going to slip Bush into on 8/19/06 at 10:23 PM.

All I had to go on was my attendance at one show, the Rochester show on July 1, 2006, at which the best corps THAT night didn't win.

Again, I appreciate the respectful tone of the debate (certainly better than the old newsgroup, R**D), but:

It's 1988-89 all over again: Senior corps "pushing the envelope, "raising the bar," and 3000 people at DCA finals in Eastern PA. If you want to be successful in DCA you better tailor your show to the back of the sheet. It's all fun and games until Hurcs play Adagio.

It's Designers writing to impress other Designers (and Judges who may potentially hire them to teach their band programs).

Vs.

Performers laying it out for The Audience.

Hmmm... Designers and Judges vs. Performers and The Audience.

Let's see: Give me Performers and The Audience.

Should I look at the back of the sheet before making up my mind?

Wow, should I clap for the corps that just blew my face off playing "Georgia On My Mind?" Or should I look at the back of the sheet first? I can't decide. Maybe the poor schmuck who got just got suckered into judging a senior show for essentially dinner and gas money can decide for me.

The fine print on the back of the sheet says that the corps that was hanging on the dear life the last 3 minutes of their show is better (tonight).

My original point was and is: We should allow for "any given night" possibilities.

Empire was better on that night. I don't care what you guys tell me I saw. That doesn't mean they'll be the best the next week. And that's an important part of what I'm saying.

The way it is now, if you say that Empire should have beaten the Bucs on July 1st, then somehow you're insulting the entire history of the Bucs and that just isn't true. I love the Bucs, always have. Heck, Reading, PA is the home of the Ice Cream Scooper (you can look it up). I'm even a closet fan of that corps from Thermopolis, WY.

DCA survived 1988-89, but some of the greatest corps in the history of the activity had to suffer through some lean years with 20 to 25 horns. Luckily they made it back and/or came back.

Some of those Old DCA corps are long gone, but there are new ones from GA, NC, and (hello) CA. Did any of us ever dream there would be a DCA corps from CA?

And guess what? They're Performing for The Audience, not the back of the sheet.

Empire has had around 50 or so horns every year since 1988 (48 some years, 58 some other years). Coincindence? I don't know, maybe you "Herschmaniacs" and "Templocrats" should check the back of the sheet.

I know I may have thrown some zingers out there, but it's all for the love of the game.

AND the fact that we have a beautiful new stadium up here, and a soccer team that has had 5 nil-nil ties at home.

But, this stadium is perfect for drum corps.

DCA is very heavily anticipated up here.

Tom Allen

Rochester, NY

Ok ok. I’ve been sitting here for days biting my tongue… and now it is starting to hurt… (I keep telling myself I am going to stay off this darn thing... but this thread is going in a GOOD place.) This is good stuff that needs to be talked about. Bravo for making a productive thread!!

As far as understanding -- read again what Jeff Mitchell wrote – he explains it pretty well (and you can see why he is so respected as a brass judge)

I believe that the "grey area" as Mr Carpenter calls it… is all about HOW FAR UP DO WE SET THE BAR??

I imploringly believe that it is our duty in drum corps to set the bar as high as possible. That’s our job. (yes, while still entertaining, please dont go there :) )

Simultaneous Demand and Derived Achievement are designed exactly to keep the bar high, and is the specific reason that drum corps evolved beyond the tick system, also then to add Effect into that mixture too.

The tick system kept the bar low as far as demand goes… certainly cleanliness is gold, but if corps X dumbs things down to make it clean and corps Y plays a much harder show and gets within the same ballpark cleanliness-wise, then corps Y should win, by a spread.

(and NO I’m not talking about specific teams here…)

There is also a factor of a repertoire of styles versus a singlular style. Should a corps who are achieving several distinct styles place above a corps with only one style? (I believe so) Many corps nowadays acheive all sorts of contrasting styles, both musical and visual. In a cleanliness-only environment, this gets no credit.. but any of you who teach know that this is an accomplishment.

In drum corps, I believe that the mission is to not only play clean, but to push limits at the same time. Go somewhere. Do something incredible. It’s about human perseverance and growth. It's about going beyond what you ever thought you could.

And, when interpreted correctly, the sheets support that.

I know there are debates of how much is demand and how much is cleanliness, or whose style is more difficult... I'm not going there.

Every corps' learning curve is different... which is what makes this activity so interesting.

I’ll leave it with this… How high are YOU setting the bar? Or are you lowering it?

see ya at the show,

joe

Edited August 4, 2006 by Tom D'Bomb

[KeithHall]

Again, I am agreeing with Tom on this. "On any given night" the corps that performs the best should win. As I read Tom's post I thought...hmmm, maybe Tom should be running the DCA judges. You judge what you see and you give them the score they deserve that particular contest. Next week, clean slate! I can bet that after a contest judges are talking on the phone or e-mailing each other. The best part about the "tic system" was the judge marked off for errors (execution-wise). With the "build up system" corps aren't marked off for errors, you just don't get the points. I was reading through the scores, in the 1970's, and saw jumps from contest to contest and placement jumps. Now that, to me is competition. If Corps "A" is hot tonight and wins and next contest has a let down..duh they shouldn't win as long as corps "B" was the better corps. Am I making sense?

I guess what I see is similar to education. Lets find new ways of doing things for the sake of change. Buzz words and "intellectual ways" of doing something that we've been doing for decades. Phonics was working but some smart"Butt" decided he wanted to show everyone how smart he was and find another way of teaching students to read. Results are...our reading in this country is well below average. 58% of freshman can't read at 9th grade level. Get back to basics.

I remember a few years ago when I was with Crusaders and the same four corps were always at the same show for weeks. No surprise who took 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The scores went up 2-4 points each contest. I could have predicted each corps score. Now if each corps was judged for what they did that particular night I think placements MAY have been different.

Competition is good! I had a professor who hated that word and thought "comparition" was better.

I meant what I said about Tom...DCA should hire him to develop a fair system. Just MY OPINION.

[Browniebrick]

My money is on the Buc's to win it all in 2006 !!! The spread isn't getting closer in the top two spots, but it should be interesting to see how the rest of the corps do in regards to the other eight finals spots. Live with the system until it is changed. ES may well be the second best corps in DCA for 2006 (Quite an accomplishment indeed!!!).

:) b**bs :) :sshh: :)

[tubajoe]

Where is this vacuum in which you live? Take me to this vacuum. I wish to learn more about the vacuum of which you speak.

I know that when ANYONE mentions "raising the bar" a bunch of people start to think "boring, academic show". That's not how it is.

No way. Let go of that phobia. As an instructor, I am always trying to raise the bar... If I'm not, I'm not doing my job.

"Raising the bar" is not the antithesis of entertainment. No way.

Anyway...

It's Designers writing to impress other Designers (and Judges who may potentially hire them to teach their band programs).

I dont see ANY of this in DCA. Not any. None. Nada.

I really feel that just about ALL performers in DCA really lay it out for the crowd -- as do the designers.

The ultimate goal is to excite the crowd AND the judges at the same time.

Should I look at the back of the sheet before making up my mind?

No, but the judges should. That's what we've asked them to do. This is not American Idol. We dont have the audience call in and decide the winner. (should we? :) )

My original point was and is: We should allow for "any given night" possibilities.

YOU BET. That's a cool thing about DCA vs DCI again. Last year a corps jumped SIX places in a single season. That would never ever happen in modern DCI.

Now, do you know how "any given night" works? Judges judging the SHEET and having the integrity to NOT look at previous weeks' recaps!!!!!!

Empire was better on that night. I don't care what you guys tell me I saw.

I dont think anyone is telling you guys what you saw. I know I certainly wasnt (and I am guessing you thought I did since you quoted my whole post)

I think a lot of us can agree that it is about the audience AND the back of the sheet AND the camraderie AND the people AND the competition AND the experience.

I dont think anyone is trying to take entertainment out of it and alienate the audience. I just dont!!

There is a nice energy in DCA. I enjoy it. Again, no one wants DCA to be DCI. If I wanted to be in DCI right now, guess where I'd be??

Ok enough of this -- I am having old time RAMD flashbacks now. The rest of you can have the last word -- no more DCP for me for the time being. I gotta go get ready for the weekend!!!! Lots to take care of before I abandon my poor wife for 2 1/2 days!!

See ya all up there.

B)

joe

[Bushsop89]

Can we get back to talking about something important, like amplification. I think amplification would add a heck of a lot of entertainment value to DCA. What does everyone else think?

Dave