Cavaliers music themes

[horn_star]

Well, let's address these individually since this perceived sameness is, in most cases, the result of a vague rhythmic allusion as opposed to an exact harmonic copy:

Yup, I know what you are talking about, it is the 3/4 section, in frameworks, where leads walk down and basses walk up in notes. they shift a parrallelogram, and do a ripple/kneel effect. that is the same notes as the follow the leader at the end of the opener for 06

First of all, the section in Frameworks is in 5/4, and stylistically the section is similar to the end of the 2006 opener because, as was cited, the low brass and high brass are playing ascending and descending lifted quarter notes respectively. However, the 2006 excerpt is in 3/4 and leads forward much differently since the progression begins on two of the bar and resolves on one of every subsequent bar. The resolution in 2002 was to a major triad, wheras in 2006 the progression resolves to F minor (with a sharp 5 thrown in just for kicks). The additional chord tones in the upper trumpets also make for an important difference in color, since these tones were not present in the Frameworks excerpt. Though, given the staging in 2006, these notes are more difficult to hear over the fifths in the low brass. So, the two figures are very different in terms of harmony and forward motion, but since they occur at similar places in the opening movements and involve a similar rhythm, some people may perceive them as equal... They are not!

Spin Cycle parts are in the closer baritone parts from this year

The opening melodic line in Spin Cycle was based on the F Lydian scale, and the perceived sameness is a result of the first four notes F,G,A, and B. In the beginning of the closer, there is an accelerando from 80ish bmp to 200 and something, during which the brass layer in on this four-eighth-note motif. These capsules are seperated by one eighth rest and repeated as the accel. progresses. In the 2006 closer after the drum solo, the baritones introduce a motif involving the first 6 notes of the F octatonic scale (F, Gb, Ab, A, B, C). This figure is also played, initially, in four-eighth-note capsules seperated by an eighth rest. However, after two repetitions, the rhythmic interests become much more diverse both in the baritone part alone and with the addition of other voices on a similar but descending line. Again, these two figures are very different in their harmony and application, but they too occur at similar times in the program and involve a similar rhythm, people have obviously perceived them as equal... They are not!

this years end of the ballad is the same pit parts as 007

Do you mean they were both in C minor? I'm afraid that other than the key (and maybe the general feeling or something?) they're just not the same. You are aware that The Cavaliers hired a new percussion arranger in 2006, right?

As far as some of the chord progression similarities in the ballads from 04 and 06 go (minor i going to neopolitan II for the big brass hold moment), it's really not much of a secret.

Can't argue here. Cm -> DbMaj7 in 2006 and I can't recall what the chords were in 2004. Granted, in 2006 the motion leading to that change was vastly different. In any case, it's an effective and somewhat unexpected harmonic shift.

I have to admit that upon first hearing a few of the similarities mentioned, I immediately made the same observations as other posters (particularly with the end of the 2006 opener and the four-note figure in the closer). However, after a few viewings, it was obvious that I had overlooked many important subtleties that, when summed up, create something very different. There are obvious harmonic and especially rhythmic similarities in ANY corps' compositions/arrangements from year to year. So before anyone moves to criticize Richard Saucedo or any other arranger for allowing such a thing to happen, I think it's important to use Richard's music as an example of how vague rhythmic similarity can be blown out of proportion when in fact, the employment of the various other musical devices is very different and converges to create a product that is completely different and full of subtlety and nuance.

-edited for grammar-

Edited September 14, 2006 by horn_star

[jake_the_hydra]

Well, let's address these individually since this perceived sameness is, in most cases, the result of a vague rhythmic allusion as opposed to an exact harmonic copy:

First of all, the section in Frameworks is in 5/4, and stylistically the section is similar to the end of the 2006 opener because, as was cited, the low brass and high brass are playing ascending and descending lifted quarter notes respectively. However, the 2006 excerpt is in 3/4 and leads forward much differently since the progression begins on two of the bar and resolves on one of every subsequent bar. The resolution in 2002 was to a major triad, wheras in 2006 the progression resolves to F minor (with a sharp 5 thrown in just for kicks). The additional chord tones in the upper trumpets also make for an important difference in color, since these tones were not present in the Frameworks excerpt. Though, given the staging in 2006, these notes are more difficult to hear over the fifths in the low brass. So, the two figures are very different in terms of harmony and forward motion, but since they occur at similar places in the opening movements and involve a similar rhythm, some people may perceive them as equal... They are not!

The opening melodic line in Spin Cycle was based on the F Lydian scale, and the perceived sameness is a result of the first four notes F,G,A, and B. In the beginning of the closer, there is an accelerando from 80ish bmp to 200 and something, during which the brass layer in on this four-eighth-note motif. These capsules are seperated by one eighth rest and repeated as the accel. progresses. In the 2006 closer after the drum solo, the baritones introduce a motif involving the first 6 notes of the F octatonic scale (F, Gb, Ab, A, B, C). This figure is also played, initially, in four-eighth-note capsules seperated by an eighth rest. However, after two repetitions, the rhythmic interests become much more diverse both in the baritone part alone and with the addition of other voices on a similar but descending line. Again, these two figures are very different in their harmony and application, but they too occur at similar times in the program and involve a similar rhythm, people have obviously perceived them as equal... They are not!

Do you mean they were both in C minor? I'm afraid that other than the key (and maybe the general feeling or something?) they're just not the same. You are aware that The Cavaliers hired a new percussion arranger in 2006, right?

Can't argue here. Cm -> DbMaj7 in 2006 and I can't recall what the chords were in 2004. Granted, in 2006 the motion leading to that change was vastly different. In any case, it's an effective and somewhat unexpected harmonic shift.

I have to admit that upon first hearing a few of the similarities mentioned, I immediately made the same observations as other posters (particularly with the end of the 2006 opener and the four-note figure in the closer). However, after a few viewings, it was obvious that I had overlooked many important subtleties that, when summed up, create something very different. There are obvious harmonic and especially rhythmic similarities in ANY corps' compositions/arrangements from year to year. So before anyone moves to criticize Richard Saucedo or any other arranger for allowing such a thing to happen, I think it's important to use Richard's music as an example of how vague rhythmic similarity can be blown out of proportion when in fact, the employment of the various other musical devices is very different and converges to create a product that is completely different and full of subtlety and nuance.

-edited for grammar-

* begins slow clap*

[LaSqueegee]

Watch the ESPN2 broadcast....then watch the Niagra Falls closer....there is a drill move in there that is similiar. It is hidden well though!!! :)

[chaddyt]

....there is a drill move in there that is similiar.

Get out of town! In a Cavies show?!?!!? Similiar drill?

I just don't know what to say. I'm shocked.

[triplefunk]

* begins slow clap*

clap......................... clap.......................... clap..................

[tplaya1]

When I stated that the pit parts were similar, I was talking about the triplet runs leading to the chord at the end of the ballad this year that are uncannily similar to the triplet runs in the pit from the 007 show, if not exactly the same.

Yes, I know the Erik left the Cavaliers this year

[Lance]

Yeah, the past 5 years have lots of places that sound the same.

[caviepit85]

clap......................... clap.......................... clap..................

clap............. clap............... clap.............. clap............. clap............... clap..............

[eightyonepointthree]

Yeah, the past 5 years have lots of places that sound the same.

One could say the same for lots of little segments of the Blue Devils and of phantom. It happens when the same arrangers are used from year to year. It seems though, that when Saucedo uses previously used materials, it is called "ripping them off". When Wayne Downey does it, they are refered to as "trademarks".

[justanopinion]

Get out of town! In a Cavies show?!?!!? Similiar drill?

I just don't know what to say. I'm shocked.

Could someone point out the drill similarities from the past few years? Other than saying "they use blocks," or other geometric shapes, I'm not sure that I see repetition. I see a style, for sure, but I haven't seen them repeat drill moves or sequences.

Just as the poster brilliantly broke down the musical differences in passages people complained were the same, I would hazard a guess that the same could be done for the drill in the last 3 or 4 years.

So...give it a shot. What are these moves that are so often 'repeated?'