What is II/III

[JimF-LowBari]

Think about it. What can you expect to accomplish in an open air football stadium with 30 or fewer members? You can't project much in the way of volume with fewer than 15 horns and a miniscule percussion section. You can't offer much in the way of field coverage, and drill designs with so few people. If a D3 is truly successful, after a certain amount of time, they will grow and progress to attract more members and go on to bigger and better things. They will better themselves and become more competitive in either D2 or D1. If not, something is obviously wrong. Flame away if you must. I stand firm.

No flame, just amazing that you said one thing I agree with and one I disagree with in the same post. :P

Agree - a smaller corps cannot do as much in way of drill as a larger corps can.

Disagree - The term "better themselves". Think you've fallen into the trap of looking at small corps with big corps eyes. I've seen and enjoyed small corps over the decades but the best way I've found to do this is look at small corps with a totally different mindset. IOW - what big corps and small corps can do are apples and oranges so comparing is useless.

For example when I watched a corps with less than 15 (yes less than 15) members I didn't think "Man they won't do #### compared to the top corps". My first thought was "Well this is gonna be different, let's see what can be done with 15 bodies". It's not for everyone but some of us can get a lot out of what a small group of people can do. Wasn't my favorite show of the day but one of the most interesting.

Edited September 26, 2006 by JimF-xWSMBari

[kusankusho]

Think about it. What can you expect to accomplish in an open air football stadium with 30 or fewer members? You can't project much in the way of volume with fewer than 15 horns and a miniscule percussion section. You can't offer much in the way of field coverage, and drill designs with so few people. If a D3 is truly successful, after a certain amount of time, they will grow and progress to attract more members and go on to bigger and better things. They will better themselves and become more competitive in either D2 or D1. If not, something is obviously wrong. Flame away if you must. I stand firm.

Standing firm in the face of reason and logic isn't a good thing.

First - what do you propose they do while they are waiting to get to whatever magically acceptable number you deem respectable?

Second - what difference does it make if they can't compete with Devils or SCV in field coverage, volume etc? They aren't trying to....

Third - How is a corps supposed to grow if you ban them from appearing?

Fourth - What Slow Adam said......

Fifth - why does it always have to be bigger and better? A pretty shallow view, don't you think?

Sixth - the final measure of a corps worthiness is NOT whether you personally feel entertained or that a particular corps has lived up to your standards. The only standard they need to meet is the care and education of the kids.

I keep seeing this on this board - raise the limit. I think they should abandon the limit. If a corps only recruits 25 kids let them go on the field anyway. The kids AND the management will learn a lot.

Jim

Edited September 26, 2006 by kusankusho

[audiodb]

Think about it. What can you expect to accomplish in an open air football stadium with 30 or fewer members? You can't project much in the way of volume with fewer than 15 horns and a miniscule percussion section. You can't offer much in the way of field coverage, and drill designs with so few people. If a D3 is truly successful, after a certain amount of time, they will grow and progress to attract more members and go on to bigger and better things. They will better themselves and become more competitive in either D2 or D1. If not, something is obviously wrong. Flame away if you must. I stand firm.

OK, I'll take the bait. This is fun.

1. Didn't Blessed Sac win their first nationals with 17 horns?

2. You never saw the Marion Cadets in 1996 or 1997, did you?

3. According to you, something was obviously wrong with the 1992 Mandarins. The two-time division III champs fielded just 10 horns, and 38 members total. What can you expect to accomplish in an open-air football stadium with that? (In this case, they accomplished title #3 at DCI.)

4. OK, I give up. I agree with you. These corps should attract more members. Something is obviously wrong - we haven't told enough people how wonderful these division II/III programs are. Let's rectify that problem, starting with this thread. (I see some of you started already....)

[Eddie]

You can't project much in the way of volume with fewer than 15 horns and a miniscule percussion section.

Quality has outperformed quantity in many many situations, just ask the Mandarins. My own corps only has 13 horns and we still play louder than most other groups here.

You can't offer much in the way of field coverage, and drill designs with so few people.

Not true at all. Again, I look back at the Mandarins, and a few other corps. The use of field sets or props have done wonders as well.

If a D3 is truly successful, after a certain amount of time, they will grow and progress to attract more members and go on to bigger and better things. They will better themselves and become more competitive in either D2 or D1.

And what is your experience in drum corps administration that backs up this claim again?

If not, something is obviously wrong. Flame away if you must. I stand firm.

Again, different corps, different objectives. DCI does not define a successful corps or organization. Each organization is its own, with its own objectives, mission statement, and goals.

It's not always the size that counts, but how you use it. B)

Edited September 27, 2006 by bari_benzo

[Tom Brace]

No bait here...II/III is great.

I said 50 members before...maybe 40 as a minimum instead. I mean if you are going to drive a bus down the road, might as well fill it up! With 9 judges on the panel, we have to give them enough to do.

There are wonderful stories about small corps, large corps, medium sized corps that have accomplished great things. My wife will be disappointed, but I guess size doesn't matter so much.

By the way..I think I was at almost every Marion Cadets shows in 96-97. In my opinion, they were not a drum corps, but more of a mini-corps concept. They played their hearts out and were worth watching and listening too, but it's not what I think of when I think drum corps. Sorry, if that offends, but I don't picture Marion 96 when I think of drum corps.

Someone mentioned St. Johns...wasn't CYO 95? a great small corps as well?

The popular perception from the poll is that II/III is a minor league for Div. I. Nothing could be further from the truth. Funny how perception and truth are two entirely different things...pick up a book called "Flags of our Fathers" if you don't believe me.

The truth I believe is that there are no true lines drawn between II/III and Div. I to make it a minor league. With the exception of 3 Div. 1 corps, no minor league teams exist. Div. II/III at it's best (this year's finals for instance) can be more entertaining and engaging than some of the Div. I performances.

Div. II/III is more the ######## step cousin of DCI than it is it's minor leagues. If this was going to be the developmental entry point for many of tomorrow's drum corps elite members, then DCI would market it in that direction. If DCI wanted new recruits to go to Raiders, Impulse, Racine Scouts, Capital Sound, etc., these corps and their performances would have at least brought a mention on the ESPN2 broadcast. How about 90 seconds of video about Div. II/III?

Too much to ask I guess.

If drum corps is hard to explain to someone new without using the term marching band....and it is...trust me. Then Div. II/III and it's participants are even harder to describe.

Someone asked me once if these first corps practiced as much as the ones on later in the evening. My answer...every bit as much.

Do they ever get to go on after dark? Almost never. At the show we attended, less than half the audience was seated before the intermission.

Why don't these guys march with the bigger corps? Some want to...some don't. Some are getting everything they want from drum corps...right here.

I'm really glad many of you got to share your opinions, stories, thoughts, ideas, etc. Thank you for sharing. I learned a great deal...changed my mind about 85 times in the last 2 weeks. I started this post 4 times before I think I got it right.

Hey II/III...go get em. I'm still a little worried about all of you. Hoping we all figure out how to keep it all going forward. Live strong...play loud and RAISE MONEY!

[kusankusho]

I said 50 members before...maybe 40 as a minimum instead. I mean if you are going to drive a bus down the road, might as well fill it up! With 9 judges on the panel, we have to give them enough to do.

By the way..I think I was at almost every Marion Cadets shows in 96-97. In my opinion, they were not a drum corps, but more of a mini-corps concept.

I started this post 4 times before I think I got it right.

You didn't.

[Slow Adam]

No bait here...II/III is great.

I said 50 members before...maybe 40 as a minimum instead. I mean if you are going to drive a bus down the road, might as well fill it up!

I never slept as well on the bus as I did when we only had 30 members. It made for much more comfortable sleeping. That's why we did so well! :P

Edited September 27, 2006 by Slow Adam

[RFPADirector]

Didn't read through all of the posts, so maybe someone said this already (If so, then I agree! :P ).

I think DIV II/III is a venue that extends drum corps to more folks. We are starting a div ii/iii corps here in PA over the next few years. We will not have a full season tour and will be predominately weekends. This will allow kids to work, take summer classes, hang out, etc. But they can still do drum corps. We will strive for excellence just like a div 1 corps will, we just may be a little smaller.

I personally love div ii/iii shows. The shows and corps are so intimate. You can't hide in a small corps. When you see a fantastic div ii/iii corps, you have to realize that every kid can play, spin, etc.

Chalet

[MelloHorn13]

having the mimimum of 30 members have it's good and bad side. Good that it pushes corps to have a somewhat presentable numbers on the field. and then you got corps like Bandettes who don't compete b/c they can't get 30. I think DCI created a 4th division that competed in regionals only, it would help alot more corps.

20 - 35 Division 4

36- 69 Division 3 (still think the max should go back to 60)

70-79 between divisions

70-135 Division 2

[kusankusho]

having the mimimum of 30 members have it's good and bad side. Good that it pushes corps to have a somewhat presentable numbers on the field. and then you got corps like Bandettes who don't compete b/c they can't get 30. I think DCI created a 4th division that competed in regionals only, it would help alot more corps.

20 - 35 Division 4

36- 69 Division 3 (still think the max should go back to 60)

70-79 between divisions

70-135 Division 2

Y'know - that ain't bad!

I might want to play with your thresholds a bit, but a div 4 might be a great idea. Maybe we would still have an all-girl corps out there.....

How are Bandettes anyway? I haven't heard much since the announcement about going co-ed and all-age.