GGarrett Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 2.) The Cavaliers continue to dominate the competition.....resulting in women saying, "HEY...I want to win!!!" That's true . . . it is interesting to think that of 4 of the past seven years (2000 tie), there have been no female DCI champions.But if no one cared when all-male corps only won once or twice per decade (70's-90's in the DCI era), then they shouldn't care now . . . Well every year every corps has a chance to win, don't they? It would take a monumental effort by some of the least likely contenders, but they all start in the fall with the same chance from the basic standpoint. It might be a safe bet to say that if half the guys from Cavaliers all suddenly decided to go join The Academy, The Academy would have a heck of a shot at being pretty darn good in this their first season in Div 1 but that still wouldn't have anything to do with their new members being all male. The same would be true if half the female members of Bluecoats all bailed and went to Academy. The talent level knows no gender... just talent. And anyway, since there are only two all male corps in the activity, statistically the odds would be/should be stacked against them to win if we just base winning on co-ed or all male/all female membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield_cadets Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 Tradition? What does that have to do with this activity anymore? (I am just as saddened by the loss of many of the old drum corps traditions as many others are) What about the sexism vs. racism argument? How can one be accepted, even defended in the courts but not the other? note: I'm not advocating all corps to be co-ed, I like the fact that the Cavs & Scouts are exclusive, I'm playing devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScribeToo Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 What about the sexism vs. racism argument? How can one be accepted, even defended in the courts but not the other? Racism is addressed as an issue of separate but NOT equal. Segregation of whites and blacks in the south, for instance, typically meant substandard accommodations for blacks and much more advantageous ones for whites. That was clearly a problem that needed to be addressed... and it was and is still being addressed. Sexism can be addressed the same way... but in this case specifically, there's no evidence of separate and inequal. Considering that the two corps who hold the most total championships during the DCI era are both co-ed and have been since DCI's inception, I'd say the opportunities for competitive success outside the all-male arena are far more vast than they are on the inside. There are plenty of equal and separate opportunities for both sexes.. all races.. Stef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suncontra99 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 (edited) Well I have a question. This topic was brought up with a friend years ago and we were wondering..... If a young lady, made herself out to be a young man, you know go through the process of hiding or covering up who she was (The Physical aspect). Then was offered a spot in the corps and later said "Guess what, I'm a woman" would she be allowed to join? If I'm not mistaken didn't this happen some years back with the young lady filling out an application to an all male school, getting accepted, then being told she couldn't attend (But did eventually) after she revealed she was a woman? Edited November 14, 2006 by suncontra99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PioSop06 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 It wouldn't be the same if Madison included girls in their corps. We couldn't say "the boys of summer" anymore. However, I didn't like it when Phantom Regiment included boys in their guard. It was the last all girl guard left in Div. 1 if not all of drum corps.So, it's only a matter of time. Nope, Pioneer's guard is all-girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGarrett Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Well I have a question.This topic was brought up with a friend years ago and we were wondering..... If a young lady, made herself out to be a young man, you know go through the process of hiding or covering up who she was (The Physical aspect). Then was offered a spot in the corps and later said "Guess what, I'm a woman" would she be allowed to join? If I'm not mistaken didn't this happen some years back with the young lady filling out an application to an all male school, getting accepted, then being told she couldn't attend (But did eventually) after she revealed she was a woman? well that would be an intentional deception and would only be being done on the part of the woman to what? ... prove a point of talent? That's not the issue with Madison or Cavaliers. No one there is saying or implying that girls aren't good enough to be amongst them or don't have the same talent. It's just that (as has been mentioned here a few times) they are a private organization, not government subsidized or sponsored, they don't exclude women as an intentional snub to them, and they are currently only accepting male members. So the answer to your question would be that she would then most likely politely be asked to leave the corps. And, as has also been mentioned here, it would be obvious if she refused to leave and decided to sue the corps to remain a member that she would be an outcast and probably labeled a troublemaker by countless fans, and her experience would be not at all what the experience of being a Madison Scout or Cavalier would be about. Her effort would be better spent doing all she could to form a powerhouse all female corps, and make it a worthwhile organization for competeing and providing a positive experience for all female members of that particular organization. That is of course, until someone comes in and makes an argument that males should be allowed in, and some guy goes in dressed as a woman and makes the corps and then reveals that he is a man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzEuph Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Madison has had girl guard/ dance members. I know 05 but I believe that she was the 2nd. Cavies are the only corps to never have a female. My question is, do they have female staff members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScribeToo Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Well I have a question.This topic was brought up with a friend years ago and we were wondering..... If a young lady, made herself out to be a young man, you know go through the process of hiding or covering up who she was (The Physical aspect). Then was offered a spot in the corps and later said "Guess what, I'm a woman" would she be allowed to join? If I'm not mistaken didn't this happen some years back with the young lady filling out an application to an all male school, getting accepted, then being told she couldn't attend (But did eventually) after she revealed she was a woman? well, I imagine she'd be disqualified on the basis that she does not meet the membership requirements (one of those being her gender). I can't speak for how Scouts' camps go, but Cavaliers' camps are held over a weekend -- actually a couple of weekends.. the line isn't set until January at least. There are no separate facilities for women -- meaning if you're a woman wanting to use the shower, you need to put up a sign, post a guard and shower late at night or earlier than the boys wake up. With an all-male corps, they tend to use whatever facilities (showers, bathrooms, etc) are available.. the name on the door doesn't mean much. Not to mention there are doctors on staff who usually have to clear each potential member before they're offered a spot. Stef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScribeToo Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Madison has had girl guard/ dance members. I know 05 but I believe that she was the 2nd. Cavies are the only corps to never have a female.My question is, do they have female staff members? Cavaliers have had female instructional staff in the past and they always have female support staff. Stef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield_cadets Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 Racism is addressed as an issue of separate but NOT equal. Segregation of whites and blacks in the south, for instance, typically meant substandard accommodations for blacks and much more advantageous ones for whites. That was clearly a problem that needed to be addressed... and it was and is still being addressed.Sexism can be addressed the same way... but in this case specifically, there's no evidence of separate and inequal. Considering that the two corps who hold the most total championships during the DCI era are both co-ed and have been since DCI's inception, I'd say the opportunities for competitive success outside the all-male arena are far more vast than they are on the inside. There are plenty of equal and separate opportunities for both sexes.. all races.. Stef Good argument! Exactly the type of dialogue I was hoping for. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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