Return to '88 format?

[charleschuchuta]

Said it before, say it again: Madison won the night and deserved that trophy. But I still think there was a fix in. Look at the think piece they showed between BD and SCV, and it looks to me like Dan Feeney is being told which number to pick.

Debate over who was the best corps that night aside, I've always wondered why they showed that on the broadcast. Here Don's talking about how the new format makes it more fair, and they show that. also for facts sake I believe it was Scott Stewart, not Dan. He sure looks weirded out himself after that. Anyway...whatever.

[boxingfred]

I've marched in or watched every DCI championship scince 1975. 1988 was the worst format ever in my opinion.

[fourouttheforty]

I dunno about it. Each judge would be able to rank each corps properly, but the spreads are going to be ridiculous.

Say you're the brass judge and you're listening to the best brass line in the country 6th to last and they're absolute nails. You can't give them a 20.0, a 19.9, or even a 19.6 because because you automatically say that this line is better than someone who hasn't performed yet. So you want to leave some room so you give them a conservative 19.0, smack in the middle of Box 5. Well, if the last 5 hornlines you hear are also Box 5, but not better that 19.0 by a longshot, then you've got to squeeze 5 hornlines in only 1.0 points. And when the worst hornline you heard should actually be a point a half lower than the top hornline (but still box 5), you're hurting the Jim Ott winner because they ought to have a greater spread than they actually have. This is why going last is so valuable, you're more likely to get the spread you deserve on the other corps in individual captions, and as a result in overall score!

Now, obviously randomizing order in smaller intervals (say every 3) reduces this problem a lot, but I like that you have to earn your performance placement in Regionals and Finals weeks based on the smaller weeknight shows and get rewarded for it.

[idontwan2know]

I would be for it, but randomize the order in groups of three or four and keep the semis scores secret.

The corps on themselves are amazing, but the event itself is extraordinarily dull. Very little drama compared to other competitions.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

I dunno about it. Each judge would be able to rank each corps properly, but the spreads are going to be ridiculous.

Say you're the brass judge and you're listening to the best brass line in the country 6th to last and they're absolute nails. You can't give them a 20.0, a 19.9, or even a 19.6 because because you automatically say that this line is better than someone who hasn't performed yet. So you want to leave some room so you give them a conservative 19.0, smack in the middle of Box 5. Well, if the last 5 hornlines you hear are also Box 5, but not better that 19.0 by a longshot, then you've got to squeeze 5 hornlines in only 1.0 points. And when the worst hornline you heard should actually be a point a half lower than the top hornline (but still box 5), you're hurting the Jim Ott winner because they ought to have a greater spread than they actually have. This is why going last is so valuable, you're more likely to get the spread you deserve on the other corps in individual captions, and as a result in overall score!

Now, obviously randomizing order in smaller intervals (say every 3) reduces this problem a lot, but I like that you have to earn your performance placement in Regionals and Finals weeks based on the smaller weeknight shows and get rewarded for it.

However, this is faulty logic. Your position assumes that all caption placements follow final placements. The problem you articulte exists today when there is a caption that is particularly strong or weak relative to the overall corps placement (i.e., 06 Crown's percussion in 12th vs. the corps 7-8 place range, 27th Lancers percussion in 2nd with the corps in 10-11th place range, 82 Sky Ryders brass line in 3rd with corps in 10th place, etc., the list goes on and on). 88 illustrated why forcing a judge to simply judge what they see and hear makes sense.

When corps perform in reverse order of finish, you can practicaly guaranty that the 12th place corps score will drop and the top corps scores will increase. There is generally very little change in final placement, despite the fact that over the years there has been significant differences in performance night to night. Last year was the first year we have seen serious movement in a long time, but it's not the first time in as many years when there should have been switching based on the actual final performances.

[fourouttheforty]

Captions aren't going to follow final placements. I'm thinking of Star, who won 3 Jim Otts without winning the whole thing. I'm saying you'd have to give them a lower brass score the earlier they go in the show because you have to give the possibility of the remaining corps beating them. Maybe if Star got to go last then then they beat CBC in 1993...

I guess I prefer to think of Finals as a culmination of the entire season rather than one night, one show to go in the history books.

[Liam]

So, I'm always a little confused by this argument when it comes up periodically. The premise of the argument is that the big upset by Madison on Saturday night proves that the random performance order experiment was a mistake (or at least that it gave them an unfair or unearned advantage). Certainly, that's what was felt that night. But now, we know that they also won on Friday night. And by a bigger margin, I might add. (Refresher -- Friday scores and placements were kept secret until after Finals). So this is clearly a flawed argument. Debate all you want whether BD or SCV should have won, but to lay the blame on the performance order now, 18 years later, holds no water since we now know the FACTS -- the judges deemed Madison the best on both nights, no matter where they performed.

I do believe that the judges mostly get it right based on the sheets/rules that they are commissioned to follow (i.e., not always resulting in the "popular" choice, but the one based on the agreed upon rules/sheets). I also believe that they are smart enouogh/professional enough to get it right regardless of the performance order. NOtice the variance in caption scores as noted a couple of posts earlier -- sometimes the 10th or 11th place corps gets top 2 or 3 in a particular caption they do well. Maybe ranges of scores will vary a bit (as they do now from Friday to Saturday), but the placement order is generally on target enough for me.

Conclusion -- '88 gets a bad rap for "proving" the random placement order experiment a failure. I think another experiment, maybe only randomizing corps in groups of three or four wouldn't be the end of world and I think the judges would still get it right (or as right as they ever do !!!!).

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I have no problem with randomizing the order. Yes, the judges will have to give the first few corps moderate scores, no matter how they feel about what they saw/heard. That's OK because it's not the actual score that matters so much, but point-spread that shows how much one corps is better than another. But DCI feels that the members and the audience need to see scores going up night to night to prove that corps are getting better as time goes on (witness the Dekalb incident where a judge dropped a piece of paper with all the corps and point spreads on it during the show. It was later claimed that was because the judges were supposed to score them higher, but not a predetermined placement).

Whether or not the order is randomized, I do believe that the defending champion should have the option of going on last at Finals. As champion, they have earned the right. They are the champs until beaten at Finals. I don't remeber what year that stopped, but it must of been around 1980. Anybody know for sure?

[Liam]

Whether or not the order is randomized, I do believe that the defending champion should have the option of going on last at Finals. As champion, they have earned the right. They are the champs until beaten at Finals. I don't remeber what year that stopped, but it must of been around 1980. Anybody know for sure?

Well, it went at least until 1988, because even with that random performance order, the Cadets went on last as the defending champ. Madison drew the 11 spot, which was the last possible spot available to them. I seem to recall Phantom being given the honor in '97 after their tie with BD in '96, but I could be totally hallucinating that. I don't recall any announcement that the tradition was being eliminated. Maybe the corps have just passed on the honor recently.

[kevingamin]

I have no problem with randomizing the order. Yes, the judges will have to give the first few corps moderate scores, no matter how they feel about what they saw/heard. That's OK because it's not the actual score that matters so much, but point-spread that shows how much one corps is better than another. But DCI feels that the members and the audience need to see scores going up night to night to prove that corps are getting better as time goes on (witness the Dekalb incident where a judge dropped a piece of paper with all the corps and point spreads on it during the show. It was later claimed that was because the judges were supposed to score them higher, but not a predetermined placement).

Whether or not the order is randomized, I do believe that the defending champion should have the option of going on last at Finals. As champion, they have earned the right. They are the champs until beaten at Finals. I don't remeber what year that stopped, but it must of been around 1980. Anybody know for sure?

There's a discussion about the history of the previous year's champion going on last here.