Who would win today Cadets or Star

[BaritoneBamBam]

Also, Cadets 93 is still the ONLY show I can watch in bewilderment at how fast they move. I know corps move quickly now, but (most of the time) it's while not playing a single note. I always found it amazing that they move quickly all the time that year. It just seemed like they never stopped. Cadets 93 is either my #1 or 2 Cadet show and top 5 all time for me.

That is my exact love for hornlines who can do something like that.

Playing is fine, marching is fine, two doable things for any division 1 drum corps. Now where does my admiration kick in? Marching AND Playing.

I don't mean to offend anyone, I think that the Cavaliers in 2006 are great, they had a good sound, great technique, but out of the top corps out there, they had their horns down the most. Many moving lines were played standing still. All, which is totally fine, just something I don't acknowledge as much as corps who are risking motion and music simultaneously. 2002 and 2006 Cavaliers had amazing hornlines, I know, but after watching the videos, I feel that the top 6 other corps challenged more finger dexterity and motion simultaneously more. This is not to say who I thought should have won high brass or anything. For me, I just admire great multitasking.

Anyway... 1993 and 1990 Star impress me for that very reason. My jaw was on the floor for the dual and simultaneous demands that were placed on these members from top to bottom. They were doing crazy drill yes... they were playing crazy runs yes... but wow they were doing that throughout the entire show. 1993 Cadets, tenor and snare features were completely on the move while other corps today won't dare to play that except standing still.

[MJN]

I agree about the tenor and snare feature. I'd like to see some other drumlines try that.

[mchromik]

I did! King's with Sky--nice horns! I've never played on the piston rotors or anything like that, so I can't speak to those (anyone? anyone?), but King 2 valves were the reason some of the corps didn't jump over to 3 valve right away. Ironic to hear someone talk about Star with regards to equipment. If they wanted it, they would have had it--ever seen their staff bus?

2 valve Kings were great horns. Granted, the new stuff is all Bb, but I'm curious to know what someone who would know says about them. Meaning, anyone play a 2 valve and teach the Bb's today? Don't just think that b/c Star had 2 valve it wasn't by design. If it had been worth the investment, King would have done 3 valve G's. If they did, everyone would have been on those.

DEG's don't really stand out in my memory. 3 valve PR.

I will take a shot at this since I played the very Kings you speak of. The Kings were neat horns. They were light yet felt solid. Very free blowing. I loved playing on them. We felt lucky to have them. Star's horns were impeccably cared for and they used the two valve Kings through the 94' Brass Theater season. They never made the three valve switch despite their availability toward the end. I currently own a two valve King mello and get it out and play 'remember when'.

But now the Star Alums & Star United we are on Bb/F. And honestly it feels great as well. After you spend some time on a nice solid and heavy F mello, the mighty K-50 feels somewhat toy-like and oh so bright. I've played a Bb trumpet back to back with the powerbore Soprano as well. Again the sop feels light and open, very responsive yet edgy. In general I would say that it is far easier to achieve the dark warm sound that became our mental ideal at Star on the Bb/F horns then on the two valvers. Probably something with traits of both would be ideal.

Edited January 31, 2007 by mchromik

[mchromik]

Couple of points--and this is not to be taken as a bash on the Cadets--'92-'94 Cadets was some of the best drum corps anybody has ever fielded. Awesome guard work, BTW. One of two corps I never beat.

1.) I don't think I've ever heard '93 Cadets mentioned outside of this thread. '87 and a whole bunch of love for several since (I was out from '98 to '04 so I can't speak to those), but '93 probably isn't even on their top 5 all-time. Think of that as complimentary and not a bash--how many corps can list their top 5 years and still have championship years to list?? Good show and I love the ballad--champion that year, but not today.

2.) Where would the activity be today if Star were still fielding a corps? Remember, '93 was the apex of their organization on the field and has positively left its mark for all-times' sake. Cadets is still around, and no offense, but it seems to me that Cavies is driving the bus right now. And there are a whole bunch of you in blue or green or even maroon with rings that would reside in Indiana were Star still around.

3.) I'm a PR guy, so I'm neither bashing nor gloating about anyone else. Heck, we might not even have a tie were Star still around!

4.) I miss Star.

Do you think they'll have a Star Reunion Corps for Finals next year??? If you will consider alum of other corps, put me in on the Bari/Euph's!

Star 93' and Cadets 93' and two of my favorite shows. But they are different in one respect. 93' was another fast and furious visual production from the Cadets. They did it so well throughout the 90s. But it was not the ground breaker of say 83' or 87'. Star 93' was a risky tough production. It is remember for challenging the audience in what they believed should or could be done on the field. Love it or hate it, it was designed to push your buttons and make you think. And it succeeded so well we still talk about it regularly. Probably more so then any show I can think of. I wish more folks appreciated it's subtlety and musicality, the clean effective design, and the killer percussion. But that often gets lost in the controversy that surrounds that show and the end of the Star field corps.

If Star had remained on the field I think folks would have been shocked at the varied directions they would have tried. We always thought of ourselves as the 'Chameleon Corps' and no doubt they would have lived up to that. With shocking changes in style and production. Our 'style' was all about quality of approach and that will never change. BTW Star lives on in the extra-ordinary amount of alumni who now teach a good portion of the top twelve and many others. Not to mention a certain touring stage show.

The Star Alumni Association is still active and we do hope to put the Alumni Corps together in the near future being that DCI is in our backyard. For now a core group of us play in Indianapolis and field Star United Minicorps at DCA. We are sometimes looking for Bari's.

Edited January 31, 2007 by mchromik

[bluecoats88]

Well since the judging hasn't changed all that much since 1993 then I believe the cadets would still outscore (thus beating) Star. now if the rules and judging had changed drastically since 1993 then maybe Star would outscore Cadets this time but with all things being equal in judging it would still come down to the fact that the Cadets outscored Star then and would still outscore them today (given that it was the exact same performance with the exact same panel).

[84skyrydr]

It took me awhile but I loved Stars show. For those that think that Star would be well received today, just look at the "love" that the Blue Knights got this year. It was a very comparable show of intricacies and dynamics and people booed their placement. <**> I also believe that Garfield was on fire that night and in any year of tied championships, that should have been one.

[Schickmeister]

But I do think it was lacking a bit in impact. You just WANTED them to play loud and they just DIDN'T.

Still a great show, though.

Now, I was six when this show was performed, but I've read Bill Cook's writings...and...I think that was the point?

[marshamello]

For those that think that Star would be well received today, just look at the "love" that the Blue Knights got this year. It was a very comparable show of intricacies and dynamics

Great comparison. Everytime I saw BK this past year I felt a bit of Star in the design. One of MANY reasons they had my second favorite show design after Crown (who have also exhibited a touch of Star in show design since 2003 and, to a lesser degree, throughout their existence).

[SkyRyder_FMM]

Sorry to post so many times. Don't know how many of you saw this--it wouldn't have been on the videos. Classiest thing I have ever seen and leaves kind of a punctuation mark to their leaving the activity that fall.

Old retreat, corps leave from 12th to 2nd, the champ gets the field for encore. Everyone else files out, Star plays their goodbye piece and files out, drum major last. He had kind of an odd salute that year--sort of looked like he was showing you where to stick it?? Marches directly in front of the Cadets DM's, turns and salutes. Cadets DM's salute and they all just hold it for what seemed like an eternity.........

Star DM, what?--un-salutes? Ends his salute--and BOWS to the Cadets!! Cadets hold their salute until he marches away and end their salute.

Classy. No matter what the reception or reaction by fans, that was the last official act of the Star of Indiana in DCI on the field of competition.

Simply classy. Anyone else witness that? God, I'd love to have a still photo and video of that moment.

Yep, I saw this. I also saw how the Cadets were digging Star's encore - played directly into their faces. And witnessed the Star horn line FINALLY open up and let em have it (a lot less restraint in the encore than in the show). They were louder playing sideways to the Cadets than they were playing front field to the audience during their performance.

Both shows were incredible. The judges got it right in my opinion - Cadets were just better overall that night.

[monoemono]

Now, I was six when this show was performed, but I've read Bill Cook's writings...and...I think that was the point?

I'm sure it was, in part, meant to aggrivate. And I'm sure it was by design. I just wanted ONE MORE loud chord (and if I had gotten that one, I'd have asked for one more AGAIN!).

And as for me saying it was an error, I stand by that, at least if the goal was simply to win. I think they could have squeezed a few tenths more in GE with some more impacts--would that have compromised the artistic vision of the show? Maybe--it's hard to say. I like it as is, I would have liked it a bit more with more of the old "drum-corps-give-em-what-they-want" in it, and I'm sure there are others that say that would have ruined it.

The question was, who would win? And I still think Cadets. But I still like them both a lot.