Judging

[theluckiest1]

i agree about the SA finals. that was crazy. guards dropping 7-10 points in a matter of hours. there were guards that had 90 or above in semis that didnt make finals, and yet there were guards scoring in the low 80s at finals. thats just annoying. the judges are obviously "leaving room" for the better guards, but come on!

[Jak]

Even if you can't afford the Band Hall, you can still make sure your flags don't clash with your costumes or your floor.

And the reason the numbers drop is contest dynamics. WGI Finals is unlike any other show all year, in that you have the best guards from the country all in one show. If the judges give the first guard out a 91, they will very likely be boxed in. They have to leave room not only for the guards ahead, but leave wiggle room to change the placement of finalists and avoid sub-caption ties (though they didn't seem to be concerned with that this year). It happens every year, especially in A Class.

[GEVisual]

Also keep in mind that the primary function of the Class A prelims and semis are to move the top guards ahead to the next round. The score (while still important and relevant) is not as important as the ranking and spread between rankings in those early rounds. As the previous poster said, it happens every year in Class A due to the dynamics of the show.

Edited April 17, 2007 by GEVisual

[GuardDad]

Wow! What a lame excuse. Basically what your saying is there might as well not be finals as they must have been but in the right order in semi-finals. Sorry my opinion is different. The judges should each guard in each round and let the scores fall way they may. With that thinking it means that a guard the blows up in finals will likely only fall one position. What is the point of having finals then?

So what are you suppose to tell your kids who worked hard all year and make finals and the drop 9 points in finals. What a disappointment for the kids.

The bottom line is the judges get paid and they are supposed to know how to judge. This year’s SA class from 10-16 was separated by only 0.8 points going into finals. That should mean that if one of those guards had a bad show they should have dropped several positions, but with the current thinking of lowering to scores and spreading them out then that didn’t happen. I’m not saying that guards didn’t finish in the correct position but I heard many people that thought that West Orange should have finished higher.

This also means that if a guard has a bad performance in prelims is sunk and they have no way to recover regardless of what they do. Instead of putting everything in prelimins, it should be focused towards finals and let the best guard for that show win.

A better way would be to have a double panel for finals and in the event of a tie then the high and low scores are dropped to determine the winner. If they are still the same then it is a tie.

I saw several guards that got standing ovations and others that barely got any applause from the crowd. Remember this is supposed to be for the kids and what difference does it make if there is a tie.

[Musical_Spinner]

My understanding is that it is about the placement first.....then the score.

So yeah, basically guards have to explain that to their kids if their score drops .....but the placement stays the same.

There is a whole article about this on WGI.org...........

(RUN A JUDGE IS READING THIS! Hi Bruno!)

Edited April 18, 2007 by Musical_Spinner

[Musical_Spinner]

Source

The other contributing factor has to do with the number of groups competing within a class. The A classes, especially scholastic A are huge. Suppose there are 12 groups across the country who are scoring a 16.5 in one caption; when those 12 groups meet at Championships, the ranking within that caption will result in an opening up of that particular scoring range and might, for example, fall anywhere from a 15.8 to a 17.5 in order to RANK each group in the proper order. When that happens, even the “best performance of the year” might earn a slightly lower score. The judges’ first priority is to RANK the groups in the proper order.

[GuardDad]

I've seen the explanation before. But to lower scores by more than a point in each caption is just an easy way for not to change the order. If been told that each judge is told not to give the same score in the cation they are judging so as to not cause a tie. Sorry in some classes and some performances it should come down to one or two captions making the difference. Not an artificial spread.

Sorry it just my opinion

[Jak]

The bottom line is the judges get paid and they are supposed to know how to judge.

And I suppose that you, Guard Dad, with all of your training and experience can explain to them how to judge? It's fine to express your opinion, but you don't need to attack judges like that. They are professionals working hard to the best job they can. I can also assure you that WGI assigns their best judges to WGI Finals events.

I agree that it can be discouraging for kids to have a score that drops several points in WGI Finals. It is my job as an instructor to educate the kids on the process ahead of time so they know what to expect.

The reason it happens is to avoid slotting them in performance order. When the first guard comes on the floor, the judge has no idea what the other 14 performance will be like. In order to avoid boxing himself in, he has to be conservative. This allows room to place every guard where they need to be, above or below previous groups, regardless of performance order. Also, keep in mind that the judge doesn't have a responsibility to adhere to a number given by an earlier panel. Often he isn't even aware of the number given in the last phase of competition. Another reason he spreads them out is to avoid sub-caption ties. When a judge ties a subcaption, he is essentially throwing his vote away and saying that he can't make a decision about who is better.

All season long, it's all about the number and the critera reference system. This allows groups to know where they stack up to the standard and to other groups across the country. However, when you get to WGI Finals, it's now about the ranking, not the number.

Having said all that, there are several people who were unhappy with the low numbers. I expect it to be discussed at the A/Open Caucus in Atlanta. I'm not sure anything will come of it, though, because I'm not sure anything can be done.

[Jak]

I was thinking about the fact that we had two ties in World Class. How does everyone feel about that? I think it's kind of a shame. I know it rarely happened when they used double panels. Should WGI look at putting a tie-breaker system into place? I know DCI has one. They could use ordinals or something. Any opinions?

[CoastGuard]

I was thinking about the fact that we had two ties in World Class. How does everyone feel about that? I think it's kind of a shame. I know it rarely happened when they used double panels. Should WGI look at putting a tie-breaker system into place? I know DCI has one. They could use ordinals or something. Any opinions?

There have been ties with double panels. There were ties this year because guards were very, very close. If you simpy rank and rate your caption, as a good judge should, you should not be concerned with the outcome of the contest. If all judges do this and the score is a tie...so be it. Math is math. Double panels actually increase the chances of a tie because spreads are minimized when averaged.