Late Westminster MD review

[LAMystreaux]

I really enjoyed your review, and I am 100% with you as far as your explaining your dislike of the amped vocal sections mentioned. But, you should have known that the Cadets fanatics would come out and try to tell you your opinion is wrong. You're not allowed to NOT like amplified voice, no matter how tastefully or respectfully you say it...

Oh get over yourself, please. Noone said he was wrong or trampled him for his opinion. If anything, one of the Cadets fans helped make his point a bit more clear.

Its funny how the fans are a borg, but you guys are just as "bad" as you accuse us of and you are just passionate and unbiased. BS.

[Dale Bari]

Micced narration is part of "musical innovation."

Brzzzzt. Timeout! I'm throwing the red flag.

That's a non sequitur. It's like saying, "Prose is part of 'poetic innovation.'"

I stipulate that singing can be "part of musical innovation" in drum corps, but singing is defined as: "to utter words or sounds in succession with musical modulations of the voice; vocalize melodically." I highly doubt that any Cadet narrators are "musically modulating" their voices, or speaking "melodically."

Narration, from the the verb narrate, is defined as "1. to give an account or tell the story of (events, experiences, etc.). 2. to add a spoken commentary to (a film, television program, etc.): to narrate a slide show." And to get at the real nub of the argument, the word speak (from which "spoken" is derived): "1. to utter words or articulate sounds with the ordinary voice; talk."

Not having seen Cadets' show, I am speculating, but nevertheless I believe it would be a strong guess that most observers would agree that either of the two definitions of narrate apply to what the Cadets are doing, but singing does not.

You can call it a new dimension to drum corps, you can definitely claim it is in the rules as allowable, you might even plausibly claim that it is something being demanded by the drum corps audience, but you cannot claim that the spoken voice is "part of musical innovation." There's nothing musical about it, hence the need to define singing as opposed to speaking.

Probably, the most famous composition utilizing words and music is Copland's "Lincoln Portrait". I think most objective people would agree that is a successful marriage of words and music, not music and music. Maybe it was a great idea to allow someone to speak words (especially from a public figure known for his orations) while the orchestra played, but no one except maybe a few quacks left a performance saying, "Wow, that narrator was really musical tonight!"

Ditto for Cadets (and maybe even on the "successful" part, too).

I have a general problem with the use of narration in an idiom (drum corps) that already employs wordless sounds with visuals. A valid criticism of teleplays (TV, movies, etc), which employ the spoken word through character dialogue, to explicate actions on the screen is "Don't tell, show." (I separate filmed teleplays from live stage plays because it is easier to create a visual on film to support the story, rather like drum corps.) In other words, it's better to reveal the inner depth of characters and plot by showing action, rather than using dialogue. Similarly, it is valid to criticise writing that excessively employs passive voice or non-dynamic verbs.

If the Cadets can't tell the story without explicitly telling the spectator about it, maybe it's not worth telling. I have read many comments and reviews that glowingly critique the music, marching, guard work, etc (especially from people who claim to be non-fans of the Cadets prior to seeing them), but find the talking overbearing or obscuring the rest of the show. That's not good for a show designed specifically to utilize the voice. (Still, it may be possible to tell this story wordlessly, but that's for another year.)

Sorry, I didn't mean to go in depth about using narration. I am certainly open to persuasion that narration in drum corps is a good thing, but don't try to utter sophistry like "Narration is part of musical innovation." Puh-leeze!

Edited July 5, 2007 by Dale Bari

[Dale Bari]

Oh get over yourself, please. Noone said he was wrong or trampled him for his opinion. If anything, one of the Cadets fans helped make his point a bit more clear.

Its funny how the fans are a borg, but you guys are just as "bad" as you accuse us of and you are just passionate and unbiased. BS.

Uhhhh, no. The reviewer was being badgered. The other poster was not saying, "I disagree with your opinion and here's why." He was challenging (and not in a constructive way) the reviewer's thought process and bases, trying to make him question his own judgement and overturn his opinion. The other poster was virtually saying, "Don't you think you should have said it this way .....?" and putting words in the reviewer's mouth.

Now, that may be expected in a court of law, but we have already established in DCP that pure opinion is the end-all, be-all. You like what you like, and I like what I like. And, if it be so, nowhere shall the twain meet. (How dare you question that order? ^0^ )

[LAMystreaux]

Uhhhh, no. The reviewer was being badgered. The other poster was not saying, "I disagree with your opinion and here's why." He was challenging (and not in a constructive way) the reviewer's thought process and bases, trying to make him question his own judgement and overturn his opinion. The other poster was virtually saying, "Don't you think you should have said it this way .....?" and putting words in the reviewer's mouth.

Now, that may be expected in a court of law, but we have already established in DCP that pure opinion is the end-all, be-all. You like what you like, and I like what I like. And, if it be so, nowhere shall the twain meet. (How dare you question that order? ^0^ )

When the narration is an integral part of the show (like it or not) its not like someone talking through the show and you want to tell them to be quiet, the talking is part of the show. Not wanting it there is another issue.

But again, anyone who defends The Cadets is a mindless borg and the rest of you are just passionate, unbiased drum corps fans. No biggie.

[MikeD]

Probably, the most famous composition utilizing words and music is Copland's "Lincoln Portrait". I think most objective people would agree that is a successful marriage of words and music, not music and music. Maybe it was a great idea to allow someone to speak words (especially from a public figure known for his orations) while the orchestra played, but no one except maybe a few quacks left a performance saying, "Wow, that narrator was really musical tonight!"

Ditto for Cadets (and maybe even on the "successful" part, too).

Spoken words are and have been part of the idea of 'music' for centuries...recitative for example.

Everything in the audio portion of the show is part of the musical presentation.

As for the example...I bet some DID walk out of the auditorium in awe of the narration if the person did a great job. I play in a commuity concert band, and we did a piee at our last concert that included a running narration as PART of the presentation. People DID exactly what I said, as the guy has an amazing voice...they left talking about the great job of narration the guy did as part of the piece with the winds/percussion.

A valid criticism of teleplays (TV, movies, etc), which employ the spoken word through character dialogue, to explicate actions on the screen is "Don't tell, show."

Absolutely UNtrue. There are instances where the narration is an integral part of the teleplay. "The Christmas Story" would be far less IMO without Jean Shepard's narration, as one example. "Sunset Boulevard" with William Holden's narration...ditto.

The idea that there is one and only one way to create an innovative program is 100% bogus, IMO. ANY legal element of drum corps can be used as the designers desire to tell whatever "story" they are looking to tell.

You don't have to like a particular design choice...that is up to you. But to claim it is an invalid choice just because YOU don't like it is riduculous.

[euponitone]

Brzzzzt. Timeout! I'm throwing the red flag.

That's a non sequitur. It's like saying, "Prose is part of 'poetic innovation.'"

I stipulate that singing can be "part of musical innovation" in drum corps, but singing is defined as: "to utter words or sounds in succession with musical modulations of the voice; vocalize melodically." I highly doubt that any Cadet narrators are "musically modulating" their voices, or speaking "melodically."

Who says that talking isnt music. Who says that music must include melody??

YOU ...

it's irrelevent if many people agree with you, what you say is not fact. The narrators are certainly modulating their voices to create an effect, the fact that it is not melodic means that it falls in your definition of 'not music'. There is without a doubt, a rhythm to their speaking, as well as intricate timing necessary to fit it into the show. Is it music...i think so. Do you have to like it ...NOPE. Just dont try justifying your dislike with logical fallacies when you dont need to justify your dislike.

[LoveMusicHateTalk]

Spoken words are and have been part of the idea of 'music' for centuries...recitative for example.

Recitative is NOT an example of spoken word...it is an example of speech set to the natural musical/rhythmic "ebb & flow" of the dialogue. In almost all cases, it should follow the natural rhythms and accentuation of speech and its pitch contours.

AND, by the way, I think the original reviewer was commenting on how he thought the Cadets' narration is simply excessive and unprofessional sounding...not a method of enhancing the show.

As for the example...I bet some DID walk out of the auditorium in awe of the narration if the person did a great job. I play in a commuity concert band, and we did a piee at our last concert that included a running narration as PART of the presentation. People DID exactly what I said, as the guy has an amazing voice...they left talking about the great job of narration the guy did as part of the piece with the winds/percussion.

[MikeD]

Spoken words are and have been part of the idea of 'music' for centuries...recitative for example.

Recitative is NOT an example of spoken word...it is an example of speech set to the natural musical/rhythmic "ebb & flow" of the dialogue. In almost all cases, it should follow the natural rhythms and accentuation of speech and its pitch contours.

It is spoken word that moves the 'plot' along.

AND, by the way, I think the original reviewer was commenting on how he thought the Cadets' narration is simply excessive and unprofessional sounding...not a method of enhancing the show.

A person may hold whatever view they wish about a specific use of any musical element. To say that it is not even a valid element to use at all is where it crosses the line IMO.

As is the idea that it is not a contribution to the musical presentation. It is...whether you like it or not is irrelevant to that.

[cowtown]

All the victims and defenders are out in force here, this really should blow up the myth that it’s the people that don’t like narration that are the ones that want to talk about it because frankly, it’s the pro-narration camp, those that like to tell us that they know better, and what's best for us that have flooded this thread and picked apart a rather small part of your review.

I thank the OP for taking the time to express his opinions of the show and I’m sorry that all the pro- narration, Cadet fans and Alumni came on here to beat you up for merely expressing your views. I enjoyed your review - it give me a good glimpse as how some of the shows maybe progressing, I can’t say that I agree with your views as it has been a little bit since I have seen some of the corps mentioned but I always enjoy a well written, thoughtful review. I hope the actions of the other here don’t dissuade you from posting more reviews. As you can see from the views on this thread, most don’t have the need to challenge or invalidate your opinions. This, I believe is only the act of a few and its a rather poor reflection upon a certain corps culture.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your opinions

[LoveMusicHateTalk]

Whoops, sorry I didn't quite finish my post...

Spoken words are and have been part of the idea of 'music' for centuries...recitative for example.

Recitative is NOT an example of spoken word...it is an example of speech set to the natural musical/rhythmic "ebb & flow" of the dialogue. In almost all cases, it should follow the natural rhythms and accentuation of speech and its pitch contours. It is a MUSICAL device.

As for the example...I bet some DID walk out of the auditorium in awe of the narration if the person did a great job. I play in a commuity concert band, and we did a piee at our last concert that included a running narration as PART of the presentation. People DID exactly what I said, as the guy has an amazing voice...they left talking about the great job of narration the guy did as part of the piece with the winds/percussion.

I agree...let's talk about other monumental pieces that actually incorporate the voice and narration effectively. Copland's "Lincoln Portrait" has been mentioned, how about his "Letter From Home"? Arnold Schoenberg's "Survivor from Warsaw" or Stravinsky's "L'histoire du soldat". Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf" and (sometimes) Britten's "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra". Many of these pieces incorporate words of inspiration (and even, amplification) into the concert-hall quite effectively. BUT, these are the words of Abraham Lincoln or the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust...words of substance and weight, meaningful and powerful. I don't exactly find myself chortling or looking around in embarrassment during a performance of these pieces, as I did during the "Napoleon Dynamite" moments of the Cadets show.

AND, by the way, I think the original reviewer was commenting on how he thought the Cadets' narration is simply excessive and unprofessional sounding...not a method of enhancing the show.

Edited July 5, 2007 by LoveMusicHateTalk