Late Westminster MD review

[MikeD]

<sigh> And post-modern education claims another victim.

According to dictionary.com (based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.), the definition of drum and bugle corps is this:

drum and bugle corps

–noun a marching band of drum players and buglers.

So you agree that a drum corps is a marching band? That's what the definition says.

[LAMystreaux]

All the victims and defenders are out in force here,

. . .as are the haters. Get over yourself.

[dsaeger]

Just because they may not have gained you doesn't mean that they are not gaining all sorts of new fans. The fan reaction to them last Saturday was great...and their souvie stand was packed with folks.

There were over 800 HS band kids at the Saturday Music is Cool event alone...from a bunch of HS around the area...with more of those events to come in other areas. I know that when kids I taught went to the even two years ago they came back as hard-core Cadet fans...I'm sure it's no different today.

***To draw an analogy of what you just said, I can think of quite a few things that "gain all sorts of new fans" that shouldn't ever be done. As a parent I had trouble with my wife for years as she defended our oldest (hers, actually) sounding much the same as you do. I saw the negatives far ahead and fought them the whole way and he's on three years probation on a drug bust right now. But the excuses you guys are making, you must come from the same mold.

"Don't forget to write your poor old mother. Yowza, yowza, yowza."

Nothing more should ever have to be said.

Dan

[Dale Bari]

According to dictionary.com (based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.), the definition of drum and bugle corps is this: drum and bugle corps

–noun a marching band of drum players and buglers.

So you agree that a drum corps is a marching band? That's what the definition says.

So, you now agree with me that the dictionary definitions are valid. Great! Case closed.

Actually, I know better than that. It appears that I can parse language better than you. It's a game try, but if that's all you got, I'm about to drive your pitch out of the park.

Of course, it's a band that marches, because I can make the argument that "band" doesn't automatically mean a group of musicians (i.e. "band" of brothers). If so, then the definition wouldn't need the "drum players and buglers" part, which is quite obvious in the term itself. (Unless they mean to imply that drummers and buglers are not musicians!) Actually, the plain truth is that people who write dictionaries are unlikely to be drum corps fans and get the distinction with bands, and you know that. You're just trying to be coy.

And, I am being somewhat coy too, but that's because I don't have to play your game, and you're still no closer to getting around the dictionary. (Then again, Bill Clinton did try to get us to question the meaning of the word "is". Say, how did that turn out?)

A different source leads to a different definition. Consider Wikipedia, which defines drum and bugle corps this way: "A drum and bugle corps or drum corps is a musical marching unit (similar to a marching band) consisting of brass instruments, percussion instruments, and color guard."

You're free to try different dictionary definitions of narrate, singing, and speak than I used. (I simply went to dictionary.com to find mine.) However, the fact will still remain that none of them will support your definition of music as including plain speech.

Besides, in your scenario, I would more likely be the one to agree that DCI HAS become the association of summer marching bands. YOU are supposed to be the one saying that "No, they're still drum and bugle corps!" because to you drum and bugle corps means anything you want it to mean, so the irony you intended to induce falls flat.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Dale Bari

[MikeD]

***To draw an analogy of what you just said, I can think of quite a few things that "gain all sorts of new fans" that shouldn't ever be done. As a parent I had trouble with my wife for years as she defended our oldest (hers, actually) sounding much the same as you do. I saw the negatives far ahead and fought them the whole way and he's on three years probation on a drug bust right now. But the excuses you guys are making, you must come from the same mold.

"Don't forget to write your poor old mother. Yowza, yowza, yowza."

Nothing more should ever have to be said.

Dan

Well, after seeing the Cadets show I am glad they did what they did...as were the folks who flocked to their souvie stand and gave them one of the best ovations of the evening...that's all I am saying. Not making an "excuse" for anything. Micced voice is legal, and the Cadets are using it well...an will get even better as the season progresses.

Do some not like The Cadets? Sure. Just as some will not care for any particular corps or "thing". Doesn't mean the poster can extrapolate his personal experience across the entire audience.

[MikeD]

So, you now agree with me that the dictionary definitions are valid. Great! Case closed.

Actually, I know better than that. It appears that I can parse language better than you. It's a game try, but if that's all you got, I'm about to drive your pitch out of the park.

Of course, it's a band that marches, because I can make the argument that "band" doesn't automatically mean a group of musicians (i.e. "band" of brothers). If so, then the definition wouldn't need the "drum players and buglers" part, which is quite obvious in the term itself. (Unless they mean to imply that drummers and buglers are not musicians!) Actually, the plain truth is that people who write dictionaries are unlikely to be drum corps fans and get the distinction with bands, and you know that. You're just trying to be coy.

No, they are defining the parameters of what makes up the drum and bugle corps marching band, that's all.

Why then get upset at the "drum corps is marching band" stuff that springs up all the time?

And, I am being somewhat coy too, but that's because I don't have to play your game, and you're still no closer to getting around the dictionary. (Then again, Bill Clinton did try to get us to question the meaning of the word "is". Say, how did that turn out?)

A different source leads to a different definition. Consider Wikipedia, which defines drum and bugle corps this way: "A drum and bugle corps or drum corps is a musical marching unit (similar to a marching band) consisting of brass instruments, percussion instruments, and color guard."

One difference is that Wikpedia itself is just a huge website to which anyone can contribute. It's not an "official" anything.

You're free to try different dictionary definitions of narrate, singing, and speak than I used. (I simply went to dictionary.com to find mine.) However, the fact will still remain that none of them will support your definition of music as including plain speech.

Besides, in your scenario, I would more likely be the one to agree that DCI HAS become the association of summer marching bands. YOU are supposed to be the one saying that "No, they're still drum and bugle corps!" because to you drum and bugle corps means anything you want it to mean, so the irony you intended to induce falls flat.

No, I have pretty much said drum corps is a form of marching band...and was 20...30...40 years ago as well.

As to plain speech...the narration is modulated and timed to create the effect the speaker is looking to achieve...it's not just 'talking'. Fits nicely into the bolded definition below....

mu·sic (myōō'zĭk) Pronunciation Key

n.

The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.

A musical composition.

The written or printed score for such a composition.

Such scores considered as a group: We keep our music in a stack near the piano.

A musical accompaniment.

A particular category or kind of music.

An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds: the music of the wind in the pines.

Of course, all of this dictionary stuff is just a detour. Word usage sometimes expands beyond what a dictionary will say.

In the case of musical compositions a narrated segment may be as much a part of the overall work as the flute part. It's not separate from the rest.

You don't have to like it. It doesn't invalidate it as a valid part of the show.

[audiodb]

But the narration has no melody, no harmony, and precious little rhythm. If it were "music", it would be the poorest quality music per DCI judging criteria, and should be scored accordingly. (insert smilie here)

[Dale Bari]

Oh get over yourself, please.

Its funny how the fans are a borg, but you guys are just as "bad" as you accuse us of and you are just passionate and unbiased.

anyone who defends The Cadets is a mindless borg and the rest of you are just passionate, unbiased drum corps fans.

. . .as are the haters. Get over yourself.

[above emphasis added by me]

Quoting from Robin Williams from "Live at The Met":

"<in Ronald Reagan parody voice> Where would our country be without this great land of ours?

<in own voice> Mr. President, when you look up 'redundant' in the dictionary, it says, 'See: redundant'.

<Reagan> Well, you can say that again."

Or as Foghorn Leghorn once said (borrowing from a fellow DCPer): ""Your problem is you're redundant, son. You repeat yourself; you say the same things over and over."

And one more from a certain William Shakespeare: "Methink [he] doth protest too much!"

[MikeD]

But the narration has no melody, no harmony, and precious little rhythm. If it were "music", it would be the poorest quality music per DCI judging criteria, and should be scored accordingly. (insert smilie here)

Sorry, but the narration does indeed have rhythm...lots of it. It's not just casual talking.

[Dale Bari]

No, they are defining the parameters of what makes up the drum and bugle corps marching band, that's all.

Why then get upset at the "drum corps is marching band" stuff that springs up all the time?

No, I have pretty much said drum corps is a form of marching band...and was 20...30...40 years ago as well.

Actually I don't get upset at what you think I do. When some people get on here to exclaim that DCI has become mere summer marching bands, I cringe. (From a lay-viewer's perspective, I agree that DCI and marching bands are mostly indistinguishable.) I don't bother correcting the "DCI=MB" folks because, as you well know, there is no changing their minds. But, I don't agree with them. However...

Disagreeing is not the same thing as not understanding where they are coming from. I decry any situation that moves (and has moved) DCI closer to marching bands, because I am a drum corps elitist in the sense that I believe there has been a distinct and important difference between the two activities, which has been narrowed over time. And nearly all of the movement has come from DCI edging closer bit by bit. I am disappointed every time DCI decides to adopt terms, practices, and equipment that dilute its historical uniqueness, a uniqueness that did not keep it from being a popular activity in decades past. The irony is that, by making itself more egalitarian in its self-definition and self-image, DCI has become ever more elite in its membership and fan base.

Over the time of viewing each other through the fence separating our two positions, I always thought, Mike, that you at least understood mine. Now, I'm not so sure.

One difference is that Wikpedia itself is just a huge website to which anyone can contribute. It's not an "official" anything.

True, Wikipedia is not considered gospel because anyone can edit and change content. However, you will find a majority of people who will agree that Wiki's definition of drum & bugle corps is accurate. No objective observer can dispute it. Obviously though, some observers here will dispute your notion of plain speech as music.

As to plain speech...the narration is modulated and timed to create the effect the speaker is looking to achieve...it's not just 'talking'. Fits nicely into the bolded definition below....

Of course, all of this dictionary stuff is just a detour. Word usage sometimes expands beyond what a dictionary will say.

Yes, when a usage comes about that is brand new. However, as you pointed out earlier, recitative has been around for centuries, but the dictionary makers have still not seen fit to expand the definition of music to include narration. You and the other poster are misunderstanding the term "modulation". You seem to think it is mere timing; it is not. I'm not bothering with any more definitions. You can look it up.

As I said before, great public oration involves timing, cadence, and dynamics, but those alone do not make it music. Singing requires melody and/or harmony. Poetry is more musical than mere speech. And now we have come full circle again to where I started this morning: saying "Narration is music" is like saying "Prose is poetry."

In the case of musical compositions a narrated segment may be as much a part of the overall work as the flute part. It's not separate from the rest.

I never said it should be separated, just that if you do it remains mere speech. The flute part when separated is unambiguously music, but narration is not, hence why it is not music.

You don't have to like it. It doesn't invalidate it as a valid part of the show.

Why do you persist with the idea that I don't like it or think it invalid to use? Read what I've already said about that. Really, Mike, I never thought you were dumb.