rut-roh Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 This really doesn't have much to do with anything, it's just something I remembered and thought was cool. Back in (I think it was) 1991, DCI billed the Finals as some sort of American Celebration or something. The Iraq War (the first one) had just occurred or was still occurring and patriotism was running high. Anyway, at Finals during retreat, there were fireworks and speeches and stuff. Over some very sentimental patriotic music (which was either pre-recorded or probably performed live by the US Marine Drum Corps), they played clips of drum corps members speaking about why drum corps is so important and what being a part of the activity means to them. It was all very heart-felt and emotional, the music and the words. The final speaker was the Drum Major from the Troopers. He said some very nice things about his experience in drum corps and then proceeded to end the entire presentation with the following statement, "I am an American. I am a Trooper!" The audience went CRAZY. Just thought that was an interesting and fond memory I would share. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI_Dadx2 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) As is the idea that it is not a contribution to the musical presentation. It is...whether you like it or not is irrelevant to that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Therein lies my problem with it, without narration it would easily be my favorite show. With it, it's the show I'll skip on the DVD. "Big deal" you'll say, but by the tone here in regards to their use of narration, I'll be far from being the only one. It just seems a shame when they have the perfect oppurtunity to gain new fans. Edited July 5, 2007 by DCI_Dadx2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bari Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) Who says that talking isnt music. Who says that music must include melody??YOU ... it's irrelevent if many people agree with you, what you say is not fact. The narrators are certainly modulating their voices to create an effect, the fact that it is not melodic means that it falls in your definition of 'not music'. There is without a doubt, a rhythm to their speaking, as well as intricate timing necessary to fit it into the show. Is it music...i think so. Do you have to like it ...NOPE. Just dont try justifying your dislike with logical fallacies when you dont need to justify your dislike. Well, I'm sorry that you don't like how Webster's defines words. I didn't make those up. There IS an objective definition of those words, and all I said, based upon those definitions, is that words by themselves are not music. If you can't agree to that self-apparent axiom, then further discussion is pointless. (And modulation, in this case, is not the equivalent of mere timing.) In your solipsistic (e.g. where only the self has meaning, all other meaning doesn't exist) world, my argument carries no weight. As for both you and MikeD, I'll note for all to see that I didn't say that the narration is pointless or even not well done. I didn't say that I disliked it. However, successful public speaking is all about timing and cadence and dynamics, all the things you cite, but they are not done in a musical way. No one walked out of a JFK speech or a Lincoln speech and said, "Wow, he sounded very musical tonight." As far as MikeD's implication that, just because a narrator may have been "on" that night when he read for "Lincoln Portrait" and made the performance that much better, narration equals music is still laughable because while, like for Cadets, the words are meant to enhance the music, they are still not inherently musical. A brilliant reading can make for a great musical moment, but unless the music written to go with the words is there, it is still just a speech. (Or, in the "Lincoln" example, quotes from a series of speeches.) Finally: Of course, if TV and movies were purely about action and not dialogue, we'd end up with programs only showing car chases and explosions. However, my point is that, if a production has to beat the audience over the head with a lot of words, then maybe there is a better way to get its ideas across. (That is what you've been preaching lately, Mike. What's the matter, the shoe doesn't fit so well on the other foot?) Brevity is the soul of wit, to quote a phrase, and being concise should have been on the minds of the designers. Based upon what I've read, a number of people are making exactly that criticism. Who knows? Maybe if I see Cadets, I'll enjoy the performance. Just still don't try to claim that "narration = music". (In MikeD's world: Upon leaving a political rally, one spectator says to another, "I think I'll vote for that Obama guy. His speech tonight was so musical. Did you hear when he hit that high note and held it for 8 counts? And the other time, when he rattled off that sixteenth note passage, it reminded me of Mozart's Piano Sonata in C.") Edited July 5, 2007 by Dale Bari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI_Dadx2 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 For me it really isn't a question of whether spoken word is music or not. I just don't care for it in Drum Corps. I happen to like string quartets, and they definitely demand talent and are musical, but I have no desire to see any Corps march with one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bari Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Someone else handled the recitative example. Thanks. Everything in the audio portion of the show is part of the musical presentation. Duh! Where would you include it? Colorguard? Nice try, though. As for the example...I bet some DID walk out of the auditorium in awe of the narration if the person did a great job. I play in a commuity concert band, and we did a piee at our last concert that included a running narration as PART of the presentation. People DID exactly what I said, as the guy has an amazing voice...they left talking about the great job of narration the guy did as part of the piece with the winds/percussion. Ah, but the words are still not music. See my prior post for refutation of your point. Absolutely UNtrue. There are instances where the narration is an integral part of the teleplay. "The Christmas Story" would be far less IMO without Jean Shepard's narration, as one example. "Sunset Boulevard" with William Holden's narration...ditto. I never said narration was "UN"necessary. But to simply tell that the father in "The Christmas Story" dueled with the furnace downstairs is far less funny than briefly describing it, then illustrating it with the scenes where he DOES so. Again brevity in the narration is important and is far more effective when used in combination with illustration. (Also see my prior post for more refutation.) The idea that there is one and only one way to create an innovative program is 100% bogus, IMO. ANY legal element of drum corps can be used as the designers desire to tell whatever "story" they are looking to tell.You don't have to like a particular design choice...that is up to you. But to claim it is an invalid choice just because YOU don't like it is riduculous. Here's where you really slip up, Mike. I never claimed it was an invalid choice. I'm criticizing you for claiming that narration is a "musical innovation" (which negates your recitative example - there's no innovation if people have been doing it for centuries). I'm not in the least criticizing Cadets for having chosen to use it. I'm only saying that I'm skeptical that it can be used as extensively as they appear to be using it. Because of the drum corps idiom's foundation, I think that narration is a thin reed on which to base an entire structure. Nothing more, nothing less. You're taking my general skepticism of a device (a position that I previously stated I could be persuaded out of) and claiming that I am against using it, period. Tsk, tsk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 For me it really isn't a question of whether spoken word is music or not. I just don't care for it in Drum Corps. I happen to like string quartets, and they definitely demand talent and are musical, but I have no desire to see any Corps march with one. Why not? I'd love to see a micced string section in a show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) Well, I'm sorry that you don't like how Webster's defines words. I didn't make those up. There IS an objective definition of those words, and all I said, based upon those definitions, is that words by themselves are not music. If you can't agree to that self-apparent axiom, then further discussion is pointless. (And modulation, in this case, is not the equivalent of mere timing.) In your solipsistic world, my argument carries no meaning. If you think that music something with a objective definition that can be taken from websters and applied to any situation, then no, your argument carries no meaning with me. You are still free to dislike narration for whatever reason you choose, but i will still disagree with you if you try to convince others of your opinion using an objective definition to qualify a subjective activity. Edited July 5, 2007 by euponitone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 For me it really isn't a question of whether spoken word is music or not. I just don't care for it in Drum Corps. I happen to like string quartets, and they definitely demand talent and are musical, but I have no desire to see any Corps march with one. I think this is a more reasonable opinion. You dont like something because it does appeal to you. YAY. I actually happen to agree with you more than most would think judging by my posting history...i just have a problem when people try to define something that cant be defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bari Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) If you think that music something with a objective definition that can be taken from websters and applied to any situation, then no, your argument carries no meaning with me. You are still free to dislike narration for whatever reason you choose, but i will still disagree with you if you try to convince others of your opinion using an objective definition to qualify a subjective activity. <sigh> And post-modern education claims another victim. Translation: "Dude, don't bother me with your bogus logic. You're confusing me with all those adverbs and prepostions, man! I'm too busy trippin' with my buds, so don't kill our buzz." Alternative translation: "Stop oppressing me with your Euro-centric ideas of objectivity and rules. Those are simply meant to empower the white man and keep the proletariat in its place. Viva Che!" Edited July 5, 2007 by Dale Bari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 As is the idea that it is not a contribution to the musical presentation. It is...whether you like it or not is irrelevant to that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Therein lies my problem with it, without narration it would easily be my favorite show. With it, it's the show I'll skip on the DVD. "Big deal" you'll say, but by the tone here in regards to their use of narration, I'll be far from being the only one. It just seems a shame when they have the perfect oppurtunity to gain new fans. Just because they may not have gained you doesn't mean that they are not gaining all sorts of new fans. The fan reaction to them last Saturday was great...and their souvie stand was packed with folks. There were over 800 HS band kids at the Saturday Music is Cool event alone...from a bunch of HS around the area...with more of those events to come in other areas. I know that when kids I taught went to the even two years ago they came back as hard-core Cadet fans...I'm sure it's no different today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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