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txpride

The 150 member increase.

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txpride    0

I know the 150 membership has been discussed at length on DCP. But now that we have completed 3 full seasons since the change, I'm in the mood for some fresh discussion on the subject.

First of all, I want to acknowledge that I do understand the reasonings behind the change. In particular, I definitely get the "bus seat" reasons.

That said, I want to forget the "why's" for a minute and keep the discussion more focused on the success (or lack there of) on the change.

Let's start by looking at the historical patterns of all three of our world class size limits. Being a horn player, I'm going to talk for a minute about hornline numbers and patterns for the different sizes of hornlines.

In the 70s and early 80s, the average size of hornlines were approximately 58. Corps at that time had bigger drumlines and guards. Somewhere toward the mid 80s, corps started marching an average of 64. During this time period, a few corps would push that number to the low 70s. Star was among the first to march 70-72 member hornlines. At the time, that seemed like a MONSTETR sized hornline with just those 6-8 more horn players. There was also ONE corps that tried a hornline of 86 (with a breif moment of 96 in their intro). That was the 1986 Cadets. I believe that is still the largest in history - with this year's Madison hornline just a couple of numbers off (I will get to them in a minute).

Throughout the late 80s through the 90s, the average continued to be 64 with one or two corps occasionally marching a hornline in the low 70s.

In 2000, the first limit increace happened and corps (in either division) were allowed to march a maximum of 135. Honestly, not much really changed. 64 was still the average size of a hornline with maybe 2-3 more corps in the low 70s. It was a change that had someone not mentioned it, nobody would have noticed. Perhaps a few more guard were added. That's about it.

So now we come to 2008, 2009 and 2010. The new maximum is 150. Strangely enough, there has been at least a noticable ATTEMPT at hornline increases. 72 has become sort of the new 64. The new average, if you will. Low 80s have now become the new exception. And guess what, there are still corps (even in finals) with hornlines in the 60s. Don't believe me, take out your 2008, 2009 and 2010 DVDs, find a place where you can count (there are plenty of easy drill sets to count horn members if you use the high camera feature).

And just how many hornlines are in the 80s? I know of only 3. Those are Crown (with 80), Blue Stars (with 80) and Madison Scouts (with 84). Sure, I'm sure on paper a few more corps have an 80+ member hornline LISTED. But did they get there? NO! Again, just go back and COUNT when your DVDs come in.

Hmmm...now I can finally get to my point (and sorry it's taking so long). A little birdie told me that the Glassmen had SEVEN holes in their hornline this year. How many did they really march? Not sure. I'm certain it was a LOW 70s number or maybe even a high 60s number.

How about the others in finals? I'll tell you one thing, I counted at LEAST 4 corps in finals that had noticable holes in their drill. I'm sure there were more that just hid the holes better.

Now personally, when 150 became the new max. I was ready for 80-90 member hornlines to part my hair, peal paint and break windows. Instead, I get an average of 72, a few hornlines still struggling to get out of the 60s and three corps that for sure managed to hit 80 (or 84 in Madison's case).

All this brings me to my first (of three) big questions. Where are the rest of the membership numbers? There are only 3 possible answers. A) A lot of corps have added guard. B) A lot of corps are adding percussion. Or C) most corps are not even reaching the 150 number. My guess is that the likely is "C".

Truthfully, I'd bet money that no more than 5 corps out there made it all the way to 150 on any given of the last 3 seasons. Probably a handfull got into the 140s. Another handfull in the 130s. And I'll bet some are still in the 120s (and I don't mean just those not in semis or finals).

Which brings me to my second big question. Was this chabge really worth it?

And now to my third big question. Is it even FAIR if no more than 5 corps can reach the maximum number? Oh sure, Hopkins will argue that the "seven" are the only ones that matter. But Hop, doesn't that reasoning fly in the face of your philosophy that "it's about education and not serving the ego of competition"? Yeah, believe that, and I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Ok, I've dropped my bomb. Let the explosion's aftermath begin!

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Michael Boo    4,717

Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

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txpride    0
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

*wink*

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BAC oboist    30

We should get these Spinal Tap references off this topic; think of how their drummers all turned out. "He died by choking on vomit. We don't know whose."

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purenjoyment    47
I know the 150 membership has been discussed at length on DCP. But now that we have completed 3 full seasons since the change, I'm in the mood for some fresh discussion on the subject.

First of all, I want to acknowledge that I do understand the reasonings behind the change. In particular, I definitely get the "bus seat" reasons.

That said, I want to forget the "why's" for a minute and keep the discussion more focused on the success (or lack there of) on the change.

Let's start by looking at the historical patterns of all three of our world class size limits. Being a horn player, I'm going to talk for a minute about hornline numbers and patterns for the different sizes of hornlines.

In the 70s and early 80s, the average size of hornlines were approximately 58. Corps at that time had bigger drumlines and guards. Somewhere toward the mid 80s, corps started marching an average of 64. During this time period, a few corps would push that number to the low 70s. Star was among the first to march 70-72 member hornlines. At the time, that seemed like a MONSTETR sized hornline with just those 6-8 more horn players. There was also ONE corps that tried a hornline of 86 (with a breif moment of 96 in their intro). That was the 1986 Cadets. I believe that is still the largest in history - with this year's Madison hornline just a couple of numbers off (I will get to them in a minute).

Throughout the late 80s through the 90s, the average continued to be 64 with one or two corps occasionally marching a hornline in the low 70s.

In 2000, the first limit increace happened and corps (in either division) were allowed to march a maximum of 135. Honestly, not much really changed. 64 was still the average size of a hornline with maybe 2-3 more corps in the low 70s. It was a change that had someone not mentioned it, nobody would have noticed. Perhaps a few more guard were added. That's about it.

So now we come to 2008, 2009 and 2010. The new maximum is 150. Strangely enough, there has been at least a noticable ATTEMPT at hornline increases. 72 has become sort of the new 64. The new average, if you will. Low 80s have now become the new exception. And guess what, there are still corps (even in finals) with hornlines in the 60s. Don't believe me, take out your 2008, 2009 and 2010 DVDs, find a place where you can count (there are plenty of easy drill sets to count horn members if you use the high camera feature).

And just how many hornlines are in the 80s? I know of only 3. Those are Crown (with 80), Blue Stars (with 80) and Madison Scouts (with 84). Sure, I'm sure on paper a few more corps have an 80+ member hornline LISTED. But did they get there? NO! Again, just go back and COUNT when your DVDs come in.

Hmmm...now I can finally get to my point (and sorry it's taking so long). A little birdie told me that the Glassmen had SEVEN holes in their hornline this year. How many did they really march? Not sure. I'm certain it was a LOW 70s number or maybe even a high 60s number.

How about the others in finals? I'll tell you one thing, I counted at LEAST 4 corps in finals that had noticable holes in their drill. I'm sure there were more that just hid the holes better.

Now personally, when 150 became the new max. I was ready for 80-90 member hornlines to part my hair, peal paint and break windows. Instead, I get an average of 72, a few hornlines still struggling to get out of the 60s and three corps that for sure managed to hit 80 (or 84 in Madison's case).

All this brings me to my first (of three) big questions. Where are the rest of the membership numbers? There are only 3 possible answers. A) A lot of corps have added guard. B) A lot of corps are adding percussion. Or C) most corps are not even reaching the 150 number. My guess is that the likely is "C".

Truthfully, I'd bet money that no more than 5 corps out there made it all the way to 150 on any given of the last 3 seasons. Probably a handfull got into the 140s. Another handfull in the 130s. And I'll bet some are still in the 120s (and I don't mean just those not in semis or finals).

Which brings me to my second big question. Was this chabge really worth it?

And now to my third big question. Is it even FAIR if no more than 5 corps can reach the maximum number? Oh sure, Hopkins will argue that the "seven" are the only ones that matter. But Hop, doesn't that reasoning fly in the face of your philosophy that "it's about education and not serving the ego of competition"? Yeah, believe that, and I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Ok, I've dropped my bomb. Let the explosion's aftermath begin!

Boston had 80 horns. I believe when I saw them in August it was 79. Injuries happen etc. But for all intended purposes they had 80 horns.

How many other corps did you not get the # correct on? Might be time for a recount.

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Hook'emCavies    1,947

I think having 150 is fine. I have no problem with it at all

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ouooga    492

How many of those holes are from injuries? Generally, a corps doesn't have holes by the end of the season because they couldn't fill membership; they'd have rewritten the drill.

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txpride    0
Boston had 80 horns. I believe when I saw them in August it was 79. Injuries happen etc. But for all intended purposes they had 80 horns.

How many other corps did you not get the # correct on? Might be time for a recount.

Like I said, I'm sure some corps were listed as 80 on paper but if you didn't reach that number, you didn't reach that number. Period.

No need for a recount. I counted 79 when I saw Boston too. 79 is not 80 "for all intended purposes". You could try saying that 60+19 comes to 80 "for all intended purposes" but you would still get it marked wrong on a math test.

Either you hit 80 or you didn't and a hole is still a hole no matter what the reasoning.

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txpride    0
Bluecoats, Cavies and Boston had 80. Along with the three you mentioned, that's half of of the finalists...hardly an exception.

Are you sure? We alreadt addressed Boston. Two of us on this thread agree that they had 79 with one hole (which further proves my point that corps are struggling to make it). As for Cavies and Coats, those were two of the corps that I'm almost certain had a hole or two.

Again, you can say 80 on paper but if you didn't make that number by August, it proves my point that corps are struggling to make the 150 goal.

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