Marching Cymbals

[kmansdrummin]

Great for you, and I mean that. However, let me ask you four question:

1) How many middle and high schools in 1972 trained musicians to the same high standards of those in 2011?

2) Are you aware that this training system of which you speak is being approached today in the organizations of SDCA, the lower level of DCI Open Class, and planned for within DCNA?

3) Are you implying that each and every DCI World Class corps should have performers side by side ranging from "I have never played music in my life" to "I am a conservatory trained ready for professional career"?

4) How can the drum corps training system you went through in 1972 be conducive to the DCI World Class "Major League" atmosphere in 2011 where Boston Crusaders, Blue Knights, Glassmen, Crown, Bluecoats, etc... are competing at such high levels that they can only take in youth musicians who are already well-trained?

Stu,

I'll answer to the best of my ability/knowledge,

1) Even back then, I don't think that any DCI Level (World Class) corps wouldn't train somebody on the spot. You would have to be in the Cadet Corps, or a "Feeder Corps".

2) I didn't know that. Maybe there could also be a circut that would be less pit, amps, and other junk. Like Body Building, the new circut could be like "natural bodybuilding" (no steroids), and rely on the on field percussion voices, with little pit. It is nice there are other organizations of which to grow in.

3) I guess I'm a dinosaur in that regard. And can you tell me how many drum corps marching members go on to become ready for a "professional Career" in their chosen instrument?

4) Well, in 1972, I was trained to play cymbals. I spent time in the Seattle Imperials in the winter line from 76 to 77 and learned a lot. At that time, I could've played anywhere in the country. Back in the day, the corps had kids from the city/town of which they were from. Now, there are very, very many kids trying out for spots from all over the country. (And less corps from which to go.) One of my friends is an original Blue Coat, and he was a snare drummer. He went to see them in Boise in 2007, (or 08), but they treated him like royalty. The drumline asked him questions, and the drum instructor asked if he had questions as well. He asked. "How many people in this line are from Ohio?". The answer, 2.

So funding from the town may not make sense.

And since the activity has changed so much, from all the extras in the pit, to the philosophy of Movement being more important than the Music, (don't get me wrong, those kids work very, very hard. It's the staff who get's me worked up.) and the Kids have to be more athletes than ever. Although I would love to hear different sounding drum solos.

But, IMO, Cymbals should be part of the marching experience. If not, then why have musicians at all on the field. They all could be condensed in the pit with mikes, and the field could be all a Play/Production, etc.

[MelloHorn13]

Somehow I knew that would be your response.

If only you knew.

[Stu]

Stu,

I'll answer to the best of my ability/knowledge,

1) Even back then, I don't think that any DCI Level (World Class) corps wouldn't train somebody on the spot. You would have to be in the Cadet Corps, or a "Feeder Corps".

2) I didn't know that. Maybe there could also be a circut that would be less pit, amps, and other junk. Like Body Building, the new circut could be like "natural bodybuilding" (no steroids), and rely on the on field percussion voices, with little pit. It is nice there are other organizations of which to grow in.

3) I guess I'm a dinosaur in that regard. And can you tell me how many drum corps marching members go on to become ready for a "professional Career" in their chosen instrument?

4) Well, in 1972, I was trained to play cymbals. I spent time in the Seattle Imperials in the winter line from 76 to 77 and learned a lot. At that time, I could've played anywhere in the country. Back in the day, the corps had kids from the city/town of which they were from. Now, there are very, very many kids trying out for spots from all over the country. (And less corps from which to go.) One of my friends is an original Blue Coat, and he was a snare drummer. He went to see them in Boise in 2007, (or 08), but they treated him like royalty. The drumline asked him questions, and the drum instructor asked if he had questions as well. He asked. "How many people in this line are from Ohio?". The answer, 2.

So funding from the town may not make sense.

And since the activity has changed so much, from all the extras in the pit, to the philosophy of Movement being more important than the Music, (don't get me wrong, those kids work very, very hard. It's the staff who get's me worked up.) and the Kids have to be more athletes than ever. Although I would love to hear different sounding drum solos.

But, IMO, Cymbals should be part of the marching experience. If not, then why have musicians at all on the field. They all could be condensed in the pit with mikes, and the field could be all a Play/Production, etc.

Thank you oh kind person! Response to your response:

1) Ask anyone from back in the day, "What is a Late July On-The-Road Plug?" Even many of the top 12 picked up non-trained players out on the road back in the '70s and '80s. Typical Late July scenario in pick-any-city while on tour back in the day: Interested kid, "You guys are great!" Staff member, "We need to fill a few baritone holes going into finals, do you want to finish out tour with us?" Interested kid, "I do not know how to play a two-valve G horn!" Staff member, "That does not matter right now, we will teach you how to hold the thing to your mouth and march the drill". (so goes the term plug).

2) Yep, check out the Facebook pages for SDCA and DCNA. There you will find your community targeted corps' designed for the training ground.

3) World Class DCI today is not necessarily for those going into the professional music world as adults, but more so to provide an outlet for the best marching-music youth in the world an opportunity to perform alongside the other best youth in the world for a certain period of their lives. That is how DCI WC has mainly changed since 1972.

4) This shows that the youth today in DCI WC certainly have respect for those who came before them and built their particular program, but it is also an indication that DCI "WC" has become the outlet for the best of the best in the world instead of a local community corps program.

As for cymbals, I agree with you along these lines: Snares play matched grip on flat drums... Why? To honor where the activity came from. Rifles are used on the field in a production of Carmen... Why? To honor where the activity came from. Same should hold true for cymbals.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Stu

[ggab704]

I want to see SCV with their great cymbal line, and I wish the Scouts would bring them back. However, this is the way I read your recent post:

[if the corps' in DCI did away with focusing so much on the element of high quality competition, did away with auditioning to get the best of the best, and the corps' went more into a community service mode of teaching kids the shear fundamentals of things like cymbal technique, then kids would just flock into these fun little community drum corps' and the competitive performance quality of the DCI groups would not suffer.]

Okey Dokey, if you say so!

P.S. If you say the focus is too much on competition my response is two fold: 1) If competition is not that important then why keep score in the first place; and 2) The audience pays to see the high intense head-to-head competition of the best marching groups in the world not to see how great the corps' did at teaching fundamental techniques.

you're first sentence may have won quote of the year with me just so you know.

[Da_Expert_has_spoken]

marching plates is not only limited, but very little impact overall... especially in today's arena... and this isnt an overnight thing... this trend started in the 80's... the opportunity to have more options and particular color from the front is far more valuable than 4 or 5 pairs of plates on the field ...

and you can not compare a field snare to field cymbals... as the particular voice, visual & GE impact of the field snare line is an idiomatic and dramatic part of the activity. just because there is one seemingly "pitch" to the actual drum head, doesnt mean you cant contribute multiple colors, textures and timbres... not just with sticks and implements, but actual writing and zone playing.

STU, I do like where you are going with the "honoring" idea and I know you mean well, but that is not why decisions in show design and production are made... not in the least... the only time paying homage or honoring something is ever done, is for an artistic concept or an emotional reaction. I mean one could use the logic, there should be race segregation in schools to honor American history.... I know that's not where you were going with that... but talk to most of the Percussion gurus out there and they think its a waste of personnel to march plates... in marching band where there is no limitation of personnel, that might be something else.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Da_Expert_has_spoken

[Trumpcyms1993]

If you have never had anything to do with marching cymbal lines you probably will not understand their importance, tradition, and opportunity it is for some people.

The only way a cymbal line can negatively effect a score is if

1. the line doesn't march well.

2. visuals arent clean and together

3. crashes or parts being played are out of time.

4. splits and other parts are written badly

5. the line doesnt have a good sense of uniformity

There is a different type of brotherhood and friendship when it comes to a cymbal line. That is different then any other part of the corp or unit. and it comes from the people in the line working hard to go from four or five people into a cymbal line and knowing eachother like brothers.

When corps try to remove there cymbal lines there is usually a huge alumni uproar. If a corp loses its alumni support bad things can happen.

some people think cymbal visually are "distracting"? yeah i think not. if a cymbal visual is distracting (they are only distracting if they are done badly) cymbal visuals add to the show people just have to learn to appreciate them. Im not saying all cymbal lines are good because there are definitely some bad ones that are out there and yes some of the things they do are distracting but only because they are just bad in general. but you know what is distracting seeing people walk up to a mic for a solo.

some corps are cutting down the cymbal lines to add more horns and snares. honestly is marching 80 horns and 10 snares going to help you win? no. so is have 4 cymbals going to make you lose no.

Cymbal lines can also give people who dont play brass or percussion a chance to experience dci. I have plenty of friends who played woodwind instruments and learned cymbals so they could march drum corp.

People who talk about bringing drum corp the masses and expanding the people that can participate in drum corp. Cutting cymbals is a sure fire way to alienate some people from ever getting the chance to march or experience it.

if you dont think cymbal lines add to a show or add to the corp you are sadly mistaken and need to pay more attention to them.

Most people are still under the impression that cymbals is easy and is just crashing them together. And cymbal lines have far since evolved from the days of the 70's when holding for snares and just playing crashes were all they did.

Playing cymbals is no longer just for the people that get cut from playing a drum. Cymbal playing is just as serious as playing a drum, horn, or spinning a flag.

Cymbal lines are a part of drum corp like colorguards and drumlines are. Theyve been around since the beginning and should continue to stay around.

I strongly support cymbal lines and all who have ever marched or taught the art of cymbal playing.

[Joe Salvatore]

If you have never had anything to do with marching cymbal lines you probably will not understand their importance, tradition, and opportunity it is for some people....

Playing cymbals is no longer just for the people that get cut from playing a drum. Cymbal playing is just as serious as playing a drum, horn, or spinning a flag.

Cymbal lines are a part of drum corp like colorguards and drumlines are. Theyve been around since the beginning and should continue to stay around.

I strongly support cymbal lines and all who have ever marched or taught the art of cymbal playing.

ditto

Also some well qualified percussionist are not geographically located near a corps and are unable to attend regular rehearsals.

When I marched, I lived in Houston, TX and at that time the closest corps were Spirit of Atlanta, Suncoast Sound, and Sky Ryders.

Many corps drum lines at that time were having weekly practices and as such wanted local talent where possible.

[JamMan]

Personally I think we need to lose the pit,(and electronics) and bring back marching EVERYTHING! Timpani, keyboard percussion, cymbals, etc....

As a former pit player, I love it, it's a great thing, and over the years the evolution of the pit has pretty much relegated the marching ensemble to the part that plays when the pit is taking a breather....

As a former marching timpanist, there's nothing like 4 guys in sync, and killing it!!! (27th Lancers comes to mind as the top of the food chain)

Anyway....

Now to the cymbal argument, YES the pit can provide various timbre's by switching cymbals, and in the pit situation, you CAN have several styles of orchestral cymbals that won't get ruined by a snare drummer CRANKING out a ride pattern (MY GOD what is that NEANDERTHAL doing to that pristine set of Viennese orchestral CYMBALS!!!!) You can have suspended cymbals, etc. Take that mindset to the marching cymbal player. Who says that they NEED to have the marching pie plates the whole show? Show me some innovation by starting with the marching pie plates, but MAYBE switching to china cymbals, or a different size, graduated sizes (like DCI of old where those shiny effects that started with a set of 16's ended with a set of 26's in a line! nice effect in the high stands!)

I don't see the cymbal as a "limited" piece of gear! A little thought is all you need to make it different!

You realize none of the kids would want to do that, right?

"Hey, kids! You know how you like playing marimba? How about we strap a really heavy one that's smaller and you have to march slowly around the field?"

"That doesn't sound fun at all."

"Well, how about a bells set?"

"No. Do you have a vibraphone?"

"No pedals allowed! How about timpani?"

"Yeah, I love playing a nice set of timpani and showcasing my talent with sixteenth-note runs!"

"No, you only get one and have to change the note with a hand-crank."

"I'm just going to practice on my own all summer."

But I agree with you on how many sounds and timbres can be made with a marching cymbal line. I love it. But I think corps have gotten rid of them in order to get bigger hornlines and more keyboards.

[Mello Dude]

You do realize how old that post was right?

[Soprano Martin]

Holy thread ressurection Batman!