PurpleKnights

Looks like Pioneer doesn't have much of a shot at making semis with that 72.6 for SCVC.

Used to happen all the time in college band, but never seen it in DCI before.

A lot of drama today. The top 3 OC corps could switch order. Imagine how the members of SCVC or Oregon would feel if they beat BDB today after missing out on the title...

I think you would doing a disservice to the Open Class corps by using sheets for the majority of their shows that simply aren't meant for them. None of the OC corps are capable of hitting Box 5 on WC sheets, and many (most?) would never even touch Box 4 (70-89 on WC sheets). I don't think it's right for the performers and staff to not receive meaningful feedback and evaluation. The thing that makes Open Class crazy is the achievement gap. The difference between the top 3 and bottom 5 corps is so immense that WC scores are just about useless for many OC corps. For the corps that don't have a shot at semis, today is just for fun.

OC isn't the plucky overachieving 70 member corps they generally have been. I think they have about the same size corps as BDB. I don't think BDB has an inherent advantage on the WC sheets.

I can answer your question quite easily. When I marched in 2007, Yokohama Scouts had members as old as 27, and in 2008 Beatrix had members who definitely seemed way over the age limit.

Cascades will lose to at least one OC corps... maybe the whole top 4. Teal Sound and Jersey Surf are on notice too. The top OC corps will NOT touch Pacific Crest.

WOW, this thread is crazy. The decline of drum corps is 98% the fault of how drum corps is run as a business and 2% due to things like the judging system, electronics, or the product on the field in general.

Continuing to use Oregon as a case study: Percussion score: 7/29 - 17.3 7/30 - 15.9 7/31 - 16.8 Those are HUGE discrepancies. If this was happening to a top WC corps, there would be a 30 page thread on the WC forum with people screaming bloody murder at the judges. This is just our lot in life.

Most of the judging from these late July shows has been a little off-kilter. Check the recaps from the two shows were Oregon Crusaders went from 83.35 to 83.5. The subcaptions vary WILDLY, some more than a full point higher or lower.

I'm very hopeful for OC... some people may not know this, but the corps was built up from 2001-2006 and was basically abandoned after '06 finals by the majority of the administrative and instructional staff so they could move on to a different corps, basically leaving a healthy corps to presumably fold. In the exodus OC also lost most of their equipment including the trucks and the instruments. The board of directors scrambled and found a new executive director who managed to save the whole organization. They never missed finals and have built up the corps over '08-'10 to greater success than any other period, and they did it in a worse economic climate. Kudos. Now if they can just get more than 90 guys on the field!

$$$. A lot of corps that have had no real business in World Class competitively--2009 Cascades is a prime example--probably couldn't have fielded as an Open Class corps without the money from the tour and without the draw for members that the larger tour brings. $$$. Corps that beat BDB/SCVC at finals in last 5 years: 2010: Likely no one 2009: No one 2008: No one 2007: Jersey Surf - Now in WC Teal Sound - Now in WC Spartans - Applied for WC, suffered setbacks after that year, now rebuilding 2006: The Academy - Now in WC East Coast Jazz - Folded Spartans - See above Oregon Crusaders - Suffered setbacks after that year, now rebuilding. 2005 was the Boston year and neither corps made it out, but Blue Stars were in the mix that year, as well as Fever and Impulse. I haven't been paying a ton of attention but I haven't seem those two corps around lately.

A little of both. BDB and SCVC have the advantages of a much larger and more stable infrastructure and all that entails, and a much more attractive brand than any other Open Class corps. They are also permanently removed from the natural cycle of progressing to World Class when they get good enough to compete at the next level. Corps like Teal Sound and Jersey Surf become big fish and leave the small pond ASAP because of the huge financial incentives to do so, and so will any other corps that can. It's not that BDB and SCVC (who would likely be in 2nd right now if they were going east this year) can't be beaten, it's more that every team that can beat them will get out of town the next year, and there are less corps left to challenge them these days. Other corps are doing their best to challenge the feeder corps (I recognize that they aren't just feeder corps and have their own identities and blablablabla) but many of them have natural disadvantages that they're struggling to overcome. Oregon, for example, is in an environment with a small population, a nearby World Class corps that is hurting for members, an extreme lack of knowledge of / interest in the activity, severely affected by the recession, and can't start all-days until after June 14th because of the public schools and universities there. BDB and SCVC are part of decades-old organizations that have survived because they're resistant to those disadvantages. With smart management, these corps can eventually beat the feeder corps, but if they can maintain that success they will bolt to WC in a New York minute. So yes, in a way, Open Class is eroding. There are not enough corps to replace the ones that bolt. Most of the corps are struggling. Even now, what corps look like they could rise to WC in the next few years? Do any?

D'oh!

In 2007 we had a whole Div II/III tour along the west coast.

I haven't really been following World Class, but the Open Class scores from the NW shows seem to indicate serious judging inconsistencies. The Cascades can certainly hope for a score that will bring them out of last place when the panel gets changed (is it changing in Ogden? I would guess not). That said, I would be shocked if the Cascades didn't look unprepared if they put out the full show after two weeks of all days.

The truth is much more complicated than that.

The fact that the corps director has posted here twice and no one is responding to him leads me to believe that most of you care about arguing more than the actual topic at hand. 1. Oregon Crusaders operate out of a sparsely populated state with the third worst unemployment in the United States. There are no DCI corps in the two worst hit states, so for all practical purposes OC has been hit harder by the economy than any other DCI corps. A lot of responses in this and other threads have been something in the vein of "well this is how we fixed our problems in 2003." It's not 2003 anymore. 2. All drum corps rely on predicting their revenue before it actually comes in. This is why people who say 'well if you don't have the money, don't plan a tour' are not basing their opinions on reality. Big corps have a huge margin of error. BD can count on 150 due-paying members. If someone can't pay up, they can be replaced. Small corps have to hope their members show up, stay, and can pay. If someone shows up to an April camp at BD and says 'I can't pay,' they're replaced. If someone shows up to an April camp at OC and says 'I can't pay,' OC just lost $2000. This happens ALL THE TIME and with increasing frequency, and there is nothing anyone can do to predict or prevent it, besides counseling members to understand fiscal realities and encouraging and aiding in seeking sponsorships, which OC does. You can't predict how the economy will affect attendance at a home show, or attendance at fundraisers. If you think you could look at the economy last fall and winter and do better than the staff of OC did, bull****. Many of you are looking at a struggling drum corps and insinuating that they are irresponsible or bad at their jobs right off the bat. 3. OC has to compete for members with a World Class corps. This other corps also controls the only show in a major metropolitan area in the NW, which is in OC's hometown. You can see how much this hurts; the biggest drum corps moneymaker in the NW feeds OC's competition and cannibalizes OC's revenue. At the risk of being rude to what is probably an intelligent person, this is idiotic. I'm sorry. It's called credit. OC doesn't want to go into debt, but to feed the members, and I know for a fact that OC eats better than most WC corps and always has and will, they can and obviously would. THERE IS ALWAYS A BACKUP PLAN. The administration is not reckless or stupid. If there is an emergency situation, everyone will be fine. However, OC shouldn't have to go into debt just to operate, and thanks to the successful fundraiser, they won't. Fine! Discuss! Ask questions! But to say "If I were marching I wouldn't consider this corps" or "it's obvious that the people who look after the finances for O.C. aren't in tune with finances" which are things that have been said in this topic before you ask those questions is reckless, irresponsible, ignorant, and bad for this activity, and you'd #### well better believe I'm going to get in your face about it.

You might be crazy for running your mouth when from your posts you clearly don't have ANY idea how drum corps are actually run.

"Off the top of my head I would say that they had an infux of talent when Cascades decided to go inactive last year. With Cascade back on the field, my guess is that those kids went back." Sounds logical from an outsider's perspective, but it's absolutely not the case. OC has had maybe 10 Cascades refugees over the last two years, and unless I've become forgetful, every one of those kids either returned to OC this year, moved on to a different World Class corps like BD, or aged out with OC. When Cascades went inactive, those kids mostly sat at home. It was a tremendous waste, in my opinion. I'm very skeptical of OC's scores right now because (1) They have been the only Open Class corps at every show, (2) I know they have a VERY high quality program, (3) The scores have not been going up and last year with almost the same membership (lots of vets this year), staff, and design team, they improved by more than two points at EVERY show until championships. I think perhaps they are not putting out the full show due to the early start for them this year--as you may or may not know, it takes a herculean effort to put out a competitive product in the NW where public schools (including the big universities!) end classes around JUNE 10!!! The corps remains very small, but these kids are made out of wood and I expect a top 8 finish, believe in a top 6 finish, and hope that the corps that would have set the highest Div III score in 10 years last year and come home with rings can finally escape thanks-for-trying medals.

...Why do the Cascades feel the need to field a third corps in 2010 when their single corps is already struggling for members and the Oregon Crusaders are still a fully functional organization in the same region with overlapping membership areas? Fielding two Open Class corps within the same organization in the Northwest sounds like the most unrealistic thing I've ever heard.

It would have been the highest score for a Division III corps since 1997. The Cascades organization has been a lumbering disaster since bingo went down. Ask some members about the 2006 tour! An infusion of money from a member of the board's pocket is the only thing that brought them back.

I was 75% sure that the Cascades would never hit the field for 2009 before the season started. I'm still not convinced. I don't live in the NW anymore, but unless Thunder members really do choose to join Cascades en masse and recruiting steps up, the corps will either not field or fail. And I just saw that Cascades is more than $200 more expensive than Oregon Crusaders this year, with OC offering Vet discounts and Early Payment discounts, and requires tour fees begin to be paid in January!? Doesn't look smart.

If Cascades field a corps I will eat my helmet.

The major show sponsors don't want Open Class corps in their programs. Drums Along the Rockies is one that I know turns away Open Class groups. DCI has also denied Open Class groups entry to shows as punishment for doing things they don't agree with. I think overall, DCI is NOT particularly kind to the little guys.