Brad T.

It's a three valve Dynasty... it will never sound quite "right."

Not entirely true. If you play a Bb concert horn, you can tape or hold down your 3rd valve and can at least get used to G transposed music with your first two valves. If you have a C tuba, hold down the 4th valve and pull your slides out. The 4th valve (typically a 1+3 combo) brings a C tuba down to G. Then you still have your three usual valves to practice on.

The OSUMB has outdone themselves again. To Hopkins: get over it. You only wish YEA! could get such cheers and ovations. The problem with DCI is that there is too much focus on art and very little on entertainment. DCI is trying to cater to the same type of crowd that would sit and contemplate a painting in a museum for hours. When I go to a drum corps show, I want to be entertained and have my face peeled off. I'm not one of those types who wants to go and think about the show, the meaning of the drill, or how the mellophones played tritones. I want to hear recognizable music, played ballsy and loud. That was one consistent thing about the OSUMB, the bottom line is to play and march your very best while providing an entertaining show that connects with the audience. There isn't usually some deep story to tell, or a need for a "future." And that's why some people, like myself, just don't get DCI and this desire for stories and futures and whatnot. That must be why I like DCA and Alumni corps... Some info to add about the band: 192 brass and percussion. The snares are attached via a single clip on a sling placed over the right shoulder. This year, the tenors are now playing on six-tom sets. Also, the music arranger of this show, John Brennan, is 27 years old and is an up and coming arranger of popular music for marching bands and drum corps. He's also studied under the world famous James Swearingen. Music arrangements done by him usually have percussion written by Aaron Bell.

Low brass are special orders because most high schools have their own tubas, baritones, and even trombones and French horns. Most high schools do not stock trumpets because a trumpet rental is relatively cheap. Young students are typically not started on horn or tuba, since trumpets are lightweight and trombones are relatively simple pieces of equipment (however the learning of proper slide positions is a pain). I don't think you're ever going to see a sudden abandonment of low brass requiring drum corps to return to soprano and "tenor" (think Alto/flugelhorn) voices.

Picked up one of Shenandoah's DEG flugels at DCA. Fantastic little horn. Now to just get the right mouthpiece instead of using a mellophone mouthpiece...

Wrong. Les Stentors and Spirit of Newark are the last two DCI Open Class Member Corps who use G bugles. Spirit of Newark still marches some 2-valved, non-chromatic bugles. The main reason for the switch was money. Sure, some people claim a musical aspect to it, but money always trumps. As a musician, I actually really enjoy G bugles. It's hard to play a two valved horn in most modern corps (DCA or DCI) and next to impossible in a marching band, pep band, etc. Three valved bugles are fine because they are chromatic. I personally enjoy playing 3 valved G horns in bands because it challenges my musical knowledge and abilities to stay in tune, know the fingerings (when not playing properly transposed music), and it's really quite fun. I was too young to march DCI before the switch to any key, but I challenge any and all of you young bucks out there to try a G bugle before you judge their intonation.

HornsUp is absolutely right. If you do have a baby Getzen, you will find all sorts of random notes are possible, depending on what your valve combinations are, be it a D piston or F piston, and F# rotor or F rotor. A tuner will be a great aid. Do not try to figure out what combinations until you are slotted on a concert G. Slotting yourself on a D or a B will give you false returns. Also, the baby Getzens really seem to be thrown together from backroom parts. My horn has an F piston, and F# rotor, and even with only what translates to valves 1 and 2 on a typical Bb tuba, I can play a full chromatic scale because of how strange these horns slot and the very small diameter tubing.

I love my Schilke 51D. It's a small shank mouthpiece, however it is about as big as a bathtub. Makes switching between baritone and tuba very easy for me.

Ohh... we're talking about marching band instruments... not bugles. If we were discussing G hornlines, the arranging for mellos vs flugels would be identical, seeing as though mellos, flugels, and sopranos in G all have the same length of tubing and bottom out at the same concert Db. If you want a really wide array of high and mid voices, put your leads on sopranos, the seconds on flugels, the thirds on "Alto bugles" (hybrid flugel/mello) and then keep all of the mellos. That would make for a... unique blend. I have not seen a marching French horn in F for quite some time. It seems there is much too much confusion over the difference between a mellophone and a marching French horn. A Bb marching French horn has the same amount of tubing as a tenor trombone, as well as marching baritones and euphoniums. The difference is the pea shooter bore size and tiny mouthpiece which force the normal playing range of the horn up an octave from where one would normally play an instrument of that length. At the end of the day, if you played a typical piece of band or corps music on either a F mellophone or a F French horn, the notes would be played in the exact same octave, and one musician would be using trumpet fingerings, the other would be using fingerings an octave above.

I turned in a registration form for I&E back a number of weeks ago and have never heard anything back. Where is the list of times that people are going? And where exactly is I&E? Just around the stadium or what? Thanks.

On the DCI side, none of the top 12 corps are playing Gs. Heck, many of the top 12 don't even play the same set of horns two years in a row. When you go to Open Class DCI, that's where you get a wonderful mixed bag of G and Bb. Racine Scouts used Gs, as do Spirit of Newark, Les Stentors, and Blue Saints. Spirit of Newark and Les Stentors actually still play a mixed bag of 2 and 3 valved horns. Les Stentors still uses at least one King K-90 contrabass. My DCA corps even borrowed a King K-70 baritone from them for a performance in which one of our baris had a... how shall I put it... accidental misplacement of appropriate equipment... On the DCA side, plenty of corps still use G, but that is slowly fading. On the military side, the US Air Force Academy uses Dynasty bugles, the US Naval Academy uses 3 valved Kanstuls, and the Commandant's Own USMC Drum and Bugle Corps uses 2 valved Kanstuls (the contrabasses uses 2 pistons plus 1 half step rotary). West Point has a bugle corps of some type, however I'm not sure of the manufacturer. Also the Texas A&M Aggie Band has a bugle rank in their block band. This bugle rank uses Kanstul "regulation" bugles, aka. valveless bugles. It's interesting that a sudden (within the past 5 years) resurgence of interest in valveless bugles has occurred. Getzen and Kanstul have started production of standard G bugles with an F tuning slide.

In Soviet Russia, world is turned upside down when Cavaliers battery performs. (As I look outside at the unending rain in Ohio)It's beautiful weather outside... Like Moscow sunrise! I'll think of more...

Seeing as though the age limits for Cadets2 are the same as with DCI, I would venture to say 50-75% of this board, myself included, are too old. Perhaps this would receive more interest/potential in the DCI boards!

I played a Yamaha 201 convertible tuba in high school that we bought brand new. I even took it out of the plastic. From the factory I had problems with the second valve. It would stick and feel like it was scraping. I recall using an entire bottle of valve oil in a school year because the valves needed oiled daily and even more than once per 90 minute band class.

I'm looking to buy a Dynasty/Willson 4 valve Super Mag GG contra. Paul from The Brass Shop mentioned he would potentially have a sale of a number of them, but that has not appeared to materialize. I currently play on a baby Dynasty, and much like the even smaller Bb Dynasty's that I played in high school, I put a little too much air into the horn for what it's designed, and so I have a lot of issues getting an even sound across the register. I've played a 4 valve Super Mag and I really enjoy it. Plus, the 4th valve allows for much better intonation on some of the low notes that are always just squirrely on tuba-sized instruments. If anyone has one in decent shape for sale, please let me know!

Adding a bump to this post to see if there has been any interest or movement on this sale. I've already contacted Paul by email in regards to horns I'm interested in. While I hate to see corps go Bb, I've been searching for certain horns that are in this sale for a while now.

I have three tuba mouthpieces I regularly use for tuba, Sousaphone, and G Contra. I have a standard Helleberg, a Helleberg 7B, and a Loud LM5. The Helleberg standard is ok on contra, good on Sousaphone, and so-so on tuba. The 7B is a good mouthpiece for me on a smaller G contra, like the baby Dynasty. the LM5 is a great mouthpiece on large tubas and contras. A bigger mouthpiece on a smaller horn does not result in a bigger sound. A smaller mouthpiece on a bigger horn may not allow for the full abilities of the large horn! It's all about trying different mouthpieces to suit your playing style!

My apologies! I missed the Alto horn mention! Oh well!

On a valve rotor horn it is not possible. I have a two piston Dynasty soprano that can be tuned down almost to F because of the length of the tuning slide.

This is not correct, unless you planned to play an octave lower than written. The F mellophone is pitched a 4th below a Bb trumpet. A marching French horn is pitched an octave and a 4th below a trumpet. The reason why French horn fingerings are so confusing is because a French horn is normally played an octave higher than a similar brass instrument. To a mellophone player and a Frenchie player, looking at a C in the staff will yield a concert F4 from both horns even though they will utilize different fingerings in a C major scale to get there. This is why Frenchies were so popular as G bugles, because in the written range of the Frenchie bugle it was entirely chromatic. Played down an octave? Not so much. Then it is just as non-chromatic as every other horn. If someone were to play a mellophone book using the same exact partials and fingerings as they would use on mellophone, they would be playing the book an octave lower than written. That C in the staff would suddenly become concert F3. It took my a few years to realize that the secret to French horn playing is no secret at all. It's just a whole lot of tubing played an octave above the natural fundamentals of the tubing and with a super tiny mouthpiece.

$17,500 MSRP for a G Contra!? I could buy two Kanstul Contra Grandes for that much... hell I could probably have fourth valves put on them too! I did have the opportunity to play a 4 valve SuperMag at DCA Finals this year. All I can say is: Wow! What a night and day difference between their three valve standard and 4 valve SuperMag. I could play anything and everything, and then some on the SuperMag. Problems I have with lip slurs and "not pushing enough air" when going from open to 1-3 or 1-2-3 combos in the low register were all gone on the SuperMag. I knew I wasn't that bad of a player! Also, I finally found a Kanstul converted 3 valve King K-90. I was somewhat disappointed actually. It wasn't the same as the original K-90. It still had plenty of sound and was quite open, but it, well, just wasn't the same. Probably because of the smaller bore. Apparently only the smaller Kanstul contra valve section fits because the contra grande requires more open area for the slides, and the King wrap doesn't let the grande valves fit!

If you decide to use a bugle, I personally would suggest either a two or three valve horn. The three valved horns especially are much better designed for intonation purposes than the valve rotor horns ever were. I'm not saying a valve rotor horn can't be tuned, but as far as indoor playing, there are some very decent horns out there. The Kanstul Alto Bugle comes to mind. I have one that's been butchered and rebuilt, but with a 6V mellophone mouthpiece, it has a wonderful indoor tone.

Unless I'm looking in the wrong places, Dynasty no longer builds the M380/Super Mag, 4 valve, GG Contra. My best area of expertise is with low brass, so I'll start there! I'm only going to list models I've played. Tuba/Contra: Dynasty - I played an M845 Bb convertible tuba in high school. About the size of an Ultratone valve rotor Contra, weighed about the same. Tiny bore, and was designed to be right shoulder marched. Wound up finding out Dynasty makes special order left-shoulder brackets and tried those only to have to bury my head half way into the horn to play it... They were pretty awful, but then again we didn't have much money at my school to repair them, so most of the bells were flattened, bottom bows caved in, and leadpipes squished since the concert leadpipe was not removable for marching. I played a Dynasty II G contra without much issue. The horn was balanced center, which made for a bit of an arm workout for this weakling... I graduated to a mid-90s era M378 3 valve G contra. I love the balance on this horn. It is balanced with most of the weight in the back, so it takes a lot of the workload off the arms and puts it on the back instead. Makes for super easy horn pops. However, this horn has awful low range (ie. concert pitch D below the bass clef and lower) that does not speak quickly or loudly. I've even resorted to playing a smaller mouthpiece to reduce the amount of air I put though this horn. I started with my CC tuba mouthpiece, which is basically a bathtub, and discovered I while I could play loud all day on my tuba with that mouthpiece, the contra would just not respond. I question whether it has to do with the numerous dents and constantly breaking braces... I might have a chance to try a Super Mag in Rochester during DCA finals, so if I find I like the Super Mag, I'm going to have to seriously find one and trade up! The more valves the better! King - I've only played one King contra, and it was for about 15 minutes. That would be the K-90. Massively amazing horn with a low range like none other, even with only two valves. No problem popping out the pedal G two octaves below the bass clef. And this horn was in awful condition too! Broken braces, dents everywhere. I wouldn't mind trying the new Bb contra based on the K-90. I'm sure it won't be the same though. Olds/Kanstul - I'm grouping them together for simplicity's sake. The Ultratone is basically the only worthwhile valve/rotor contra that was built. Plays just fine. The Kanstul contras are a different beast. I've only played on one, and it was the standard contra. It has an S-shaped leadpipe as opposed to the standard U pipe I've seen on other horns. I don't know if this horn was a project horn cobbled together or if it's an early Kanstul design. I like the response across the range of the horn, but it sits far too forward for me. I feel like I'm constantly lifting the horn to keep it at playing position. The valves are also way out in front of me. Yamaha - I played a 201 for a short time in high school. It was a convertible tuba, but I never used it on the marching field. There was no resistance in the low register. The notes just came out with no problem. I did not like the middle and upper registers though. They felt stuffy and thin. If I put too much air in, volume did not increase, rather I felt a loss of control on pitch. The horn was bought brand new and had valve problems from the day I took it out of the plastic bag. No matter how much oil you put in, or how many times you cleaned out the valves, they still stuck and scraped. I was totally disappointed in the quality of this horn. Baritones: Dynasty/Getzen - I am lumping these two together against all that is holy seeing as though these two are never to be lumped together! Anyway, in high school I played on the Getzen Bb marching baritone that was based on the Dynasty II baritone design. It wasn't a bad horn, aside from the fact it always blew sharp, no matter what. The tuning slide was pulled all the way out for most playing to be in tune. I have not played on a newer design Dynasty G baritone, or any other new design Bb baritones. I have played on a G Dynasty Euphonium, and I was impressed with the sound of it. Granted it's a heavy sucker, so horn angle is not so easy. I am impressed by the Getzen Titleist valve/rotor baritone. I play on one regularly and find it to be really easy to play. Decent tone, easy to tune! Ludwig - Yes, I am mentioning Ludwig in baritones because I have one that I have used in TubaChristmases. This horn is a Ludwig Classic G-D-F# valve/rotor "bass baritone." This is back when regular baritones had a soprano bore and wrap. This horn has a .562" bore, compared to the .560" in the "newer" Getzen valve/rotor I own. If it weren't for the shortcomings in having the D and F# combinations, this would be an awesome horn. The F# slide is a little strange though. It is slightly longer than the F# slide on my Getzen, so Ludwig must have compensated for not having a tunable D piston with a flat F# when playing with both valve and rotor. Alto/mellophone: Getzen - I've played a number of Getzen F mellophones both in high school and college. One word: consistency. And not in a good way. Most damage occurs to the bell. When those horns are repaired from major bell work, something gets screwed up with the horn and then the tuning slide can never come out again. The wrap of the tuning slide versus the bell is done with pinpoint accuracy in the factory, so there's just enough room to take the tuning slide out. But if you move the bell or leadpipe just a little during repairs, the tuning slide is forever held prisoner by the bell. You can tune, just not remove. Sadly, Getzen also felt that wrapping the main tuning slide around the first valve slide is a great idea. So, when the main slide becomes trapped, so does the first valve slide. I've seen it happen on countless Getzen horns. As far as playing, they're not bad. King - I have played on both the King 1120 and the 1121. No significant differences between the two. However, each model is much heavier than the Getzen model. I noticed the Kings were much more open than the Getzens. Decent horns all around, and no stupid wrap designs. There is a unique 3rd valve wrap to facilitate a closer bell to make the horn slightly more compact. The 1120s did not have this so they are ever so slightly longer. Kanstul - I have a Kanstul G alto bugle, which is the same thing as their mellophone bugle just with a flugelhorn bell. As such it's pretty much two horns in one depending on the type of mouthpiece you select. A trumpet mouthpiece gives you a brighter tone, while a or mellophone mouthpiece gives a much rounder tone. This horn has seen much better days, and even with loose parts and a rebuilt/possibly home built tuning slide, it still plays wonderfully. Soprano/Trumpet: Not my best instrument... Kanstul - Plays great, very open G sopranos. Dynasty - I have a Dynasty II soprano that looks like it was a custom order. It uses the current Dynasty three valve 1st and 2nd valve pistons. The first valve cap has been drilled out in the center because the valve stem would rub otherwise. It has a standard trumpet finger hook as opposed to the adjustable finger ring as well as Amado water keys, and the bell also has the current production Dynasty logo. All of the other Dynasty II sopranos I've seen use the DEG Dynasty logo with the circles. As a matter of fact my 3 valve contra from the 90s still has this logo. I don't know if this was a factory demo horn or what, but it plays amazingly well. I am a fairly poor high brass player and this horn makes me sound good! Olds - The Ultratone soprano is a fantastic horn. I wish mine was in better shape. There are blobs of solder all over the inside of the leadpipe, and until I get those out, we'll never know how this junkyard rescue will sound. Currently it is a combination of two Ultratones both destined for the scrapper. Now one is just sitting around as parts. Getzen - I have a Getzen G-D soprano that came with an F slide, and also fits my orphaned F# slide. This horn is in what I would consider mint condition. No plating wear, a few scratches, probably from buffing, and original case in minty condition. The most usable tuning slide, in my opinion, for a G-D horn, is the F slide. In the higher register, both the D and F slides together create faux 1-2 and 2 combinations for some of the peskier, hard to reach notes on a G-D horn with F# slide. Also, worth mentioning would be Getzen Capri Bb trumpets. Not the best horns, but get the job done for marching ensembles. Lightweight, and very rugged. I have seen Capris in regular use with a marching band that were purchased 30 years prior. Not the best looking. Rebuilt a few times, but got the job done!

In Ohio, we only have two major circuits. One is the Ohio Music Educator's Association and the other is BOA. Ohio is a very strange state in that Central, Western, and Southern Ohio participate heavily in the OMEA competitions with a few even doing BOA events, while Northeastern Ohio doesn't participate in either OMEA or BOA. Most of the bands in NE Ohio are show or swing bands as opposed to corps-style competition bands, so schools that attend OMEA events are few and far between. Part of this may have to do with the lack of football fields for all of the high schools, especially in the Cleveland area. Everyone assumes high school football games are Friday nights. For my school, a Friday night game was a rarity. We were a small Catholic school who rented out the public school district's field along with another Catholic school. We mainly played Friday night games when we were the visiting team. Our home games were mostly Saturday night, and even a few Saturday afternoon. And boy does the crowd cheer more for their college teams than the high school team when the announcer updates the college scores during those afternoon games! As such, when there is such a crunch on space and because of the odd football schedules, it would be next to impossible for all of the Cleveland area bands to even consider competing at out of town all-day Saturday events. At any rate, the first competition for high school marching bands in Ohio is on August 30. The next competition is Sept. 10. I don't know a whole lot about BOA, so I couldn't tell you their schedule.

Projection is key. At the Racine, WI DCA show, Cincinnati Tradition went up against Govenaires, and Kilties vs. MBI. Tradition and Kilties are on G, while Govies and MBI are Bb. To be honest, I really didn't notice a substantial difference until Sunday afternoon rehearsals. We were rehearsing on the back side of the middle school, and I heard two hornline rehearsals from the back side of the high school across the street. It was Kilties and MBI both in hornline rehearsal. While MBI has a very solid hornline this year, they were overpowered by the projection of the G horns clear across the street and between two large buildings. Granted echoes and sound ducting and all of those actual physics type things surely came into play, there is nothing like the cutting power of G horns. As a side note, many people claim that G hornlines will always score lower than a Bb hornline. I'd love to have a brass judge blindfolded and told to score the USMC Drum and Bugle Corps and put them up against a Bb corps of the same size. Is it truly the horns or the people blowing into them. That would be a huge test right there.