Steve Knob

I'm not voting because I love them both. Both are great for many of the same reasons, but are very different as they come from very different ears. Love them both, period.

87 Wave (but I'm a little partial) - and we only had about 35 horns. It was incredibly difficult to recruit in S FL at that time. 83 Geneseo Knights was the biggest, let me put this nicely, "mess-up" I've ever sen in DCI. They should have been about 8th or 9th. Crossmen spent all summer dreaming that they could play Russlan and Ludmilla half as well. (Not a put down of Xmen, but Geneseo was that good. Their 12 mellos on the front sideline knocked it out!) 82 Suncoast was a hard pill to swallow too.

Yes they did.

Or the Wind Serenade

If you really want to make this comparison, please make sure you also listen to the original Kenton version before going on to the others. The greatest compliment we got that summer was Sandra Opie telling us how great we sounded playing Fanfare. I think a key word here is arrangements. I was excited to learn that BD was playing Fanfare in 87, but was somewhat disappointed when I actually heard it. They played a piece based on Fanfare. They played their arrangement very well, but when we played it in 79, it was what was originally written. I have a score to the original, and we played it in Guardsmen very closely to how it appeared. It is something that has been gradually changing over the last 30 years, going from playing a piece as close to how it originally sounded, to playing something based on a piece, to now playing things that use maybe the first 4 bars of a melody and then say they are playing the piece. As an arranger, I do get creative, but at what point (and this is a completely gray area) are you playing a piece, or playing a piece based on, or playing a piece inspired by? The level of creativity of todays arrangers is amazing, but please don't tell me you are playing _________ and then I don't actually hear _________ when I see the corps. I'd love to hear a corps do Fanfare again, but I want to actually hear Fanfare, not something kind of like it. If you want to write an original, then go for it! And I'll have fun figuring out that it's kind of based on Fanfare, and those of us who know the original piece can share in your little inside joke.

3 Trumpets, 1 Flugel, 2 mellophones, 2 baritones, 1 Euphonium, and 1 contra - all playing into yamaha silent brass pick-ups, sent to a wireless transmitter fed to the front, received and sent into a sampler, trumpets triggering samples of Maurice Andre (classical show) or Arturo Sandoval (jazz), mellos triggering Dale Clevenger (classical) or Gene Roland (jazz), the rest - you get the picture, then all sent through a chorusing unit to expand the sound out to as many players as you'd like to hear (400 anyone?), the whole thing fed into a digital mixing board equipped with auto-tune, and through a couple of thousand watt amps and to a huge stack of Marshall cabinets each with 4 15"s, 2 mid horns, and 2 ceramic piezios. "Hey son, does that amp go up to 11?" Someone else can fill in an all electronic drum section... Everybody else in the guard, and no DM (click track pumped back out to the players) It's only a matter of money... EWI's anyone? Yamaha (and others) manufacture all electronic violins and cellos. Just putting that out there... Mike -

duh

Wish the whole show was just the Prokofiev.

Another quick note- On our finals tape the musical analysis judge told us we deserved a perfect 10 (same as BD), but he couldn't give it to us because we came on so early. I still think that that horn line and color guard(with more modern work), a modern drum line and modern drill would be a pretty dangerous combination today. And Russell, we WERE 4th that year! Glad to see you on here, it was a pleasure working with you in 83 at Suncoast.

Mike, Thanks for remembering us. That summer of '79 was a great ride! I addition to the relatively unknown Tim Salzman, our drum instructor at the time was also a relatively unknown - Jim Campbell, later of Cavies fame. Playing in that hornline was one of my most cherished memories, as are those people. A few other memories from that summer; -Being a member of the "Kentucky Guardsmen", and all my other KY G-men friends. -The Murray KY show judged by the audience because the judges couldn't get there. Unfortunately for all the other groups, all of the home HS bands of the KY Guardsmen (about 12 of us) were in attendance, and we played all the solos that night, and played Dixie at the end of of our warm-up of God Save the Queen. No one else even had a chance... -Chasing SCV into Atlanta and creeping to within a few tenths, ready to finally catch them, and then it rained. We didn't see them again until finals. -Gayle Royer telling us after we played for SCV under the stands at the above show "If we could put your horn line and our drum line together". Oh the possibilities...(I still don't think our drum line was that weak, just that Jim Campbell was ahead of his time and some people just didn't get it, but I'm a horn guy) -At DCI Canada, hearing Phantom being called out for high horns, and then a few minutes later the announcer sheepishly having to announce that we had actually won horns that night. -Winning American International Open in Butler PA, I believe our only major championship. -The disappointment at out prelims score (83WTF!!!!!!!!! is all I remember. Never did find out how many tenths, not that it would have mattered) after beating everyone except BD, PR, SCV, and Spirit leading up to finals week. I think we played just a little angry at finals. And in the drum corps version of the Circle of Life, in Teal Sound on '08 I instructed the son of one of the other members of our '79 French Horn line. P.S. - JimF-Low Bari, we had the second set of Dynasty 2 upright valve bugles ever produced, but I did play with my thumb up to '78!

Beethoven was 200 years ago. Mozart 250. Not relevant? It's like saying 1976 Blue Devils are not relevant to the activity because they were 35 years ago. 83 Cadets? 91 Star? Sorry, I don't buy that. We need to be careful of what aspect of Cavies hornline we are talking about. Content or execution? As a brass judge in the early 2000's, I judged the Cavies in field brass many times. From an individual execution standpoint, they were wonderful, some of the best brass playing I ever heard on the field (up to Crown 2008 IMHO). But, while the individual playing was excellent, I couldn't sing you 5 seconds of their show after they came off the field. Even as a brass judge, I remember visual parts of the program. Judging them in GE was not fun because of the big disconnect between the technical playing and the content of what was being played. I think they are getting back on track brass-wise, but it's still not like the early 2000's.

Great music. Did it with my HS band in 1992.

I think this is more on track than many of the other "reasons" (A&E, singing, "band" instruments, 3 valve bugles, 2 valve bugles, asymmetric drill, mutli-tenors, contras, piston/rotor bugles, not entering from the end line, 1 piston bugles, Elvis, etc...) given for what has happened to drum corps. There is no one cause, and many of the issues talked about on DCP have collectively caused drum corps to change. I also use the word change, and not destruction or demise, because thats what's going on, change, not destruction. I agree that bands have become "drum corps-ized", not the other way around. Having been involved with both activities since the early 70's, I can see that this is the case.

All in fun... When this activity stops being fun, then it's time to hang up the mouthpiece...

Really? Isn't this whole thread a joke? And a really great joke for the most part! Please keep posting with the original intent in mind. Most of what is here is great!

'cuz they suck?

My original vinyl copy of State of the Art is one of my most cherished drum corps items. I have a CD to listen to so I don't wear it out. No matter what "era" of drum corps you are from, everyone in the activity should experience the State of the Art recording. It is an amazing record of an amazing time in drum corps history.

Everybody who marched in 79 and 80 had a patch that said Guardsmen, with a broken number 7 in the middle. 1980 Guardsmen were the first corps since DCI started to finish 7th one year and make finals the following year. Like I said in response to Michael Boo's article on 80 SCV, I wish the corps had been better in 80, but it was a very tough year. 12th was still a huge accomplishment back then as there were over 100 corps in prelims.

We are all pretty surprised too.We marched prelims, found out we were in Finals, and turned around and did the show again, 1 and a 1/2 hours later! Why there are no prelims on the day of finals anymore.

Michael, Another great article. Please keep them coming. Please make sure you get Michael's point about having perspective. Yes, by todays standards it is very tame, but back in 1980, it was groundbreaking, creating much of the same discussion as 3 valve horns. electronics, amplification, and singing have. Stone Ground Seven is still my favorite all-time drum solo. All written in (and marched in) 7/8, 8 (yes 8!) sets of tenors, 4 low pitch and 4 high pitch, mostly played a mp to mf volume, shading and colors never written for before, the list goes on and on. And the original is an acapella Singers Unlimited tune off their Magic Voices album. A drum solo based on a vocal album - try that today and see how much heming and hawing ensues. Also the last year my corps made finals. I wish they had been better (it was a difficult year), but BITD, 12th was still a huge accomplishment, considering there were 100+ corps in prelims.

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: In all seriousness, could we keep this thread as a discussion of Bartok, and maybe a few other neglected composers instead of turning this into a PC/non-PC discussion? Discuss away on other topics, but please start a new thread. Just to toss out a few names for consideration; William Schuman (NOT Robert Schumann) - Symphonies, American Festival Overture Paul Creston - Symphonies Peter Mennin - Symphonies Lukas Foss (my mom's composition teacher) - Symphonies David Diamond - Symphonies Howard Hanson - Symphonies, Merry Mount(Cadets) Eduard Tubin - Symphonies Arvo Part - Symphonies John Carpenter - Skyscrapers Mostly unkown (or at least under played) in orchestral circles, but some of these names jump off the page if you are a "band" person.

A Concept of Excellence by the Cadets staff (pub. 1985, but still full of good information)

Then listen to the Concerto for Orchestra. Bartok is a VERY undervalued composer.

To echo a few others... 1. $ 2. $$ 3. $$$