Cadets98

The first person I ever heard refer to Finals week as "Nats" was Jeff Queen in 99 Crown. I've heard Ralph Hardimon refer to it as such, too. I've heard it a few times in my experience. I think its maybe a West Coast thing. So, its not completely unbelievable to me. Edit: And as I actually go back and read the entire thread now, it seems my assumption of it being a West Coast thing is validated. I've only heard it from teachers that have taught or marched BD or SCV.

Bill Watson? Just a guess. He's a great recent add-on for that great line.

You say no...you can't do it. Economy will always play a role even in the end results competitively. I'm not sure you can "legislate" out that bias. Professional sports has tried to some success. However, I think that you are making a grand assumption that something in the grand scheme relatively small like "lighting" can have that much significance in the total score. First we still have a 50/50 music/visual split for one. And the lighting would really have to be good to get you ANY credit visually. Otherwise, the result is "nice try but not buying it" from the judges. Trust me, the green shirts can be just as weary of new things as the general public. It has to be awesome to get credit. Look at electronics. People get slammed if its not balanced or of poor quality. Trust me. And in the end, it will still be about can you play together, in tune, keep your feet in time, and have clean drill. Again, with electronics, on the music analysis tapes, while they may talk some about balance of the electronics, mostly they talk about how well the brass and percussion PLAY! I say, if a design team has a good idea that the corps can afford then why not. If it doesn't pay off then that design team will probably get fired. :) That's how the checks and balances system works in drum corps.

double post...sorry.

Great post. From someone who was there: what he said. In addition, I find it makes a nice line from the toe straight through to the hip on the downbeats especially greater than 8-5 step sizes.

I understand you hate the voices. However, just to set the record straight, they are not "samples." They are recorded from kids in the corps.

I understand you hate the voices. However, just to set the record straight, they are not "samples." They are recorded from kids in the corps.

These are all true and valid points. I don't mean to blame everything on Rick. My main point is that he made a mistake letting Gordon and Dean go. I do believe that he had the best intentions and wanted the corps to be more competitive. 3 years in 4th place was not good enough and he felt he needed a change. I get it. I just think it was an honest mistake is all, but one that costed them, IMO. They have not had a brass staff stay longer than 2 years since...Nick Williams 06, 07.....Andre Feagin 09, 10. All other years since 02 have been one and done in the brass staff. I do agree with you very much that things are back on the right track with Fiedler running things. I do hope to see this corps at the top again soon.

True. 2004 was a good show and an amazing drumline. A few disagreements within the staff happened in 2004. The corps and the vibe within the staff still wasn't there. I mostly know some of the percussion staff's side of it but there was some issues of which I will not disclose on a public forum. Its heresay and incideniary. People talk about 04 being "it" at SCV but all was not hunky-dory behind the scenes. 05 was a disaster. Bad show in many ways. The brass staff quit in May in 05! which prompted the rehiring of Gordon. But my point was mainly that since 02, SCV has not had a good AND consistent brass staff. Some have been good but not consistent. And they really did have a consistency of music staff there in those years with Jim Casella, Glen Crosby, Gordon Henderson, and Dean Westman.

He's one of my mentors. One of those guys that should probably be in the Hall of Fame but will probably not make it. Gordon arranged for SCV from 96-99 as well as altered and helped out some of Gail's writing throughout the 80's. He also wrote the drill for a few years in the 80's. I'm not positive but I think 87 and 88. One of the few guys that can do both. The magic tricks from 87 to 89 were his ideas. He ran across a magician that wanted to be in the marching band at UCLA at the time and they experimented with some of that stuff there. He then brought those ideas to SCV. Gordon was still on staff after 99 until 2002 (until he was rehired in an emergency situation because of the brass staff quiting in 05). Gordon handed the reigns of arranging to Dean Westman in 2000-2002. Gordon composing the opener in 2002 was due to a rights dispute. Dean Westman (and I believe Gordon as well) was fired after 2002 from SCV. Rick Valenzuela wanted to go in a "new direction." (Which was down....they came in 5th in 03 after 3 years of 4th.) I still think that that firing was one of the biggest mistakes that Vanguard has ever made. They are still trying to recover. They had a consistent and good brass staff from 96 to 02 and hasn't had one sense. Oh well, Vanguard's loss was Cadet's gain. Glad it happened as I got to work with both of them at Cadets. BTW, Dean Westman is currently working with Bluecoats. I think that Gordon has finally retired after helping the Troopers make Finals.

That's who I'm nominating next year. Thanks. Ultimate compliment from someone who competed against her.

2 things....People are going to say what they are going to say. And I actually encourage honest assessment and diverse opinions of drum corps. I think its unfortunate that a negative post gets loads of negative votes. Nothing good comes from Pollyanna everything is just hunky-dory type attitudes. Just watch how much Lee Corso criticizes different college football teams. I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon. People talk trash about popular things all the time. In fact, the more popular a thing is the more trash talking there is. What I'm suggesting is that the free flowing of ideas however negative may actually be a sign of health. Also, I would suggest to trust your own instincts. What do YOU think about drum corps? I can tell you that it changed my life; that every aspect of my current life is in some way touched by my experience in drum corps. I have developed friendships that will last a lifetime. And, when I marched they were talking about the "coming end of drum corps as well." That was almost 20 years ago. So the "sky is falling" has been around a while. (sheesh I'm getting old!) I would encourage you to check it out and come to a camp at least. I know many that really regret not marching before they age-out. Probably more of those types than people that actually marched. Try to have stronger emotional boundaries. Don't let another's opinion affect yours.

2 things....People are going to say what they are going to say. And I actually encourage honest assessment and diverse opinions of drum corps. I think its unfortunate that a negative post gets loads of negative votes. Nothing good comes from Pollyanna everything is just hunky-dory type attitudes. Just watch how much Lee Corso criticizes different college football teams. I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon. People talk trash about popular things all the time. In fact, the more popular a thing is the more trash talking there is. What I'm suggesting is that the free flowing of ideas however negative may actually be a sign of health. Also, I would suggest to trust your own instincts. What do YOU think about drum corps? I can tell you that it changed my life; that every aspect of my current life is in some way touched by my experience in drum corps. I have developed friendships that will last a lifetime. And, when I marched they were talking about the "coming end of drum corps as well." That was almost 20 years ago. So the "sky is falling" has been around a while. (sheesh I'm getting old!) I would encourage you to check it out and come to a camp at least. I know many that really regret not marching before they age-out. Probably more of those types than people that actually marched. Try to have stronger emotional boundaries. Don't let another's opinion affect yours.

PR had 2 during that time. 89 and 96.

OK, I'll buy that. As long as its recognized that they really didn't play very loud that year. Great hornline. One of the purest sounds in drum corps history. Pristine. But not loud. I personally think that the argument that "max volume" means max for them and not loud is a bit of a stretch. But I'll buy your argument. The only way that hornline could "get away" with playing that volume all summer was because their show was so awesome and the effect was largely visually driven. They literally did not have to play loud to generate effect. It takes a special show to pull that off.

Great hornline but the post said max volume. This hornline never played over mf. Luckily for them their show and visual package didn't really require them to play loud to be effective. Great hornline no doubt but definitely not loud as the op implied.

I cannot imagine that Bruckner was saying that anything was wrong with PR's sound--only that SCV will not sound like PR at least in the brass. Each corps still has a distinctive sound that is not necessarily "better" than the other.

By calling what happened at FAMU "not hazing," you seem to be justifying hazing as long as it does not result in real physical damage or death. The problem with this argument is no one while hazing ever considers the real consequences. I'm sure no one wanted to kill that young man. That's the problem with hazing. It is ritualized. Ritual often takes people to an alternate reality where the rules do not apply. This is why what happened at FAMU was indeed hazing--hazing that resulted in an unintended consequence for sure but hazing nonetheless. That's why its so dangerous. Hazing often has unintended consequences. I strongly disagree with your argument. It says that hazing is ok as long as the results are controlled. Well, hazing has gotten out of control many times over history. The problem is not those specific incidences. The problem is hazing in general. Oh, and hazing is not rare at all at many traditionally black college marching bands. I heard some hellacious stories from a co-worker that played trumpet for Southern University in Baton Rouge. I know it can and does exist in other places, but it is exceptionally strong in the show bands.

Rookie talent crossed the line at one time where I marched. It was killed by the director the next year. The drum bus had no free days in 95 because they kept on trying to have rookie talent. I will not give specifics but it was hazing and was inappropriate. We had John Madden, director of bands at Michigan State who had dealt with hazing, come down the next year and talk to us. It was a problem and was squelched. 94 was the last year for rookie talent in my drum corps.

"Wall of tone" that's a Gordon Henderson phrase right?

ah...you mean the post-Dean Westman years....that was a big oops by the SCV admin that year, IMO.

04 very overrated hornline--unless you take the 5th place finish in brass at value which few do. 09 very underrated hornline--very exposed arrangements and not that great of staging overcome by great teaching and great talent.

I really don't think this should be discouraged. It makes it exciting and controversial which generates interest. Would you like to see Corso not put on his mascot headgear and just tell both teams that they all are in the end, winners? Come on. We're all grown ups and these kids are the most mature in the world. They can handle it. It makes it interesting. No one wants to hear we are all just hunky-dory no matter what. This topic has become a real pet-peeve of mind--people on DCP that would rather wear their safety helmets than talk honestly.

90 Star.......The low brass answer to the soprano double tonguing at the end of the opener. Unbelievable.

I know it doesn't "count." But that sh** was crispy semifinals night.