Vdad76

George Zengali moved the guard up front and making them an integral art of the story with the 27th Lancers, long before 94 and then many others followed in the late 70s/early 80s. He started in Guard, then became the visual designer for 27, then to Cadets, then to Star. Gail Royer brought the guard into play with integral parts of the show in the 80s with telling the story in musicals - Fiddler, Phantom of the Opera. Phantom Regiment integrated the guard into classical music stories from Operas and stories such as Spartacus in the 80s. Bobby Hoffman's shows were legendary for use of guard in stories with the Bridgemen and then the Velvet Knights and the wonderfully wacky shows they put on in the 80s.

Being a former band director who also had a winter guard, we sometimes needed to have practices where I was the only staff person there. I can tell when flags or rifles are together in their spins or work or if they are together in sections of music In their movement, being a drill writer helps with that. What I have and always will have is the interpretation of what the movement or equipment work has in relation to the music or the visuals being put forth on the field. I feel much more comfortable judging visuals, GE or music because they are the things I worked on every day and was prepared for in my daily routines. I would not want to adjudicate guard or for that matter percussion. Both have things I am not comfortable with. I can teach and understand Concert percussion, but in a marching group, their are things on the field my ears do not pick up that percussionists do, just as there are things that color guard judges pick up and see right away that would take me too long to realize and understand. Not being qualified in those areas, I would not want to judge them and I would hope that most judges, well, no - ALL judges should feel that way. It's not fair to the staffs that plan, write and teach those things, but especially really unfair to the kids performing them.

Agreed, although they might have learned some classical music by watching cartoons on Saturday mornings, so there may be some understanding going on at that point. (Not trying to be sarcastic)

The problem being, as I can see it and read from everything, is that a few people (very few) would like to increase the Corps size, which would just damage the activity beyond repair, besides what can be put on the field and made to look good so the judges and people in the stands can understand (somewhat) what is going on. What that will do is kill the activity. We've seen Drum Corps go from hundreds of groups to less than 100 to closer to 45-50 groups and only 15 or so that can field full Corps. As the activity, which I still believe in for what it does for kids for reasons that have been well explained in several of the postings, shrinks the costs go up for the individual marchers and the corps who are not financially stable enough will crumble and die out. We are missing many, many historical groups, foundation groups who were part of drum corps for many years but who found it either to not want to increase burdens on kids, lost corporate funding, lost backing from traditional sources (Boy Scouts, CYO, VFW, etc) or were in unhealthy debt, that just folded and have disappeared from our memories. We may just kill the activity completely and destroy what is left of a great learning experience for many kids and peel it down to 10 groups (or less) or so that just tour the country and play in 10-15 shows for the year or have regional areas with maybe 2-3 groups in each regional that play 5 shows or so in their regions, then all meet for a championship. Or we could just kill it off completely and have drum corps be a footnote somewhere in music history.

Yes and Vanguard will put in Bottle Dance at the end, Cadets are going to put in Tonight from West Side Story, so they can whip out the G pull move or maybe the company front that disappears and then reappears at the last note, Phantom is going to Elsa's Procession to close their show, while Crown is going to toss in Bohemian Rhapsody as their ending, Bluecoats will have someone run up the jagged line and jump off the back onto a trampoline, ala Cirque du Soleil, Boston will pull out Conquest but the audience won't all know to scream the HUH at the right time, Crossmen will come out in their old capes, which scraped on the ground when they wore them earning the nickname "Grey Ghosts" - I know because I have one (bought on line from the Crossmen in 1978). Lets see I think I've covered about everyone with histories of pulling out a last minute change or that could. Blue Devils are already doing a great rendering at the pre-show with the Percussion playing Legend of a One-Eyed Sailor, then the brass line playing small clips from just about every song they've used in the past 60 years!

From a drill writers point of view, they really are at the point where you can work on the field pretty easily, except for all the props that are on the field. The props are the most difficult thing to deal with, but more people on the field will make even more problematic. It would also become more difficult in field judging. More people on the field means fewer times to listen or see individuals work, making it harder to get a handle on what's happening.

Massive crowd appeal would go back to Muchachos in 74, Scouts in 75, Cadets in 83 (and 84), Scouts in 88.

2007- Cavies 2008- Phantom Regiment 2009- Blue Devils 2010- Blue Devils 2011- Cadets 2012- Cadets 2013- Crown 2014- Bluecoats 2015- Crown 2016- Bluecoats

Or any Madison vet up about 1995.

Thank you for the points you make, I appreciate the thoughts. I thought a lot about what I have said and not being a hater of the Blue Devils, in fact loving the jazz that they put forth on the field and the interesting ways they have recreated themselves and pushed their organizations to perfection is a model more corps should follow as I mention earlier in a post - "they are the classiest organization in DCI. No one can touch their approach to each season, nor can anyone approach they way they go about things. It's magnificent what they have done and they will probably never finish outside the medals for who knows how long and they are always a veteran corps because of their set up. It's a family organization that every corps should be trying to replicate in so many ways because it would provide stability to organizations that need it. But this show doesn't make sense to me, especially considering the past 6 of really incredible show ideas and productions!" I do believe they will hit 20 championships before the next best three combined hit 20. I do however not believe in this show, nor what they are doing visually with their brass line at all. If they add something, anything that would make them less of a pit orchestra that moves every couple of minutes to stretch their legs, I would be grateful. This probably is more deserving to be in the cut and paste post, which, to me is another problem and the problem that I see that does not make this show flow at all. You can believe what you want, we all have our favorites in corpsdom, and that's ok. People can disagree all they want too, but I've had as many agree to the points being made here too. That's why it's discussion and it gets emotional because we, as fans are invested in our favorites, or as alumni, instructors, helpers, workers even more so. I'm stating what to me looks like something that should not be getting credit as a fan, instructor, helper and judge. If things are added over the next 3 weeks, my opinion may change, but for now, there just isn't much there.

The problem that I have is that in their sellout to GE, they have ignored too many other things. Bluecoats did not sellout to GE, they put a huge emphasis on it. The rest of the show, musically, visually, percussion and guard were fantastic to go along with it. In BDs show they have completely ignored the visual properties that it takes to make a show flow, connect and be interesting from a wholistic standpoint. The brass visuals are a joke and they should be given the credit (or rather non-credit) for ignoring this part of the show! That's great, they can beat Bloo in GE, win brass, win guard and perc, but to have to overcome the deficiencies in the brass visuals should have them in a hole so big they shouldn't be able to climb out - I honestly have looked at everyone else's show and as a visual judge, I don't think it should be in the top 10, let alone top 12.

I understand what you are saying because BD has become the Kentucky/Duke/Alabama of the DCI world, but I would complain on that score no matter who scored it. It's almost the same unobtainable score just like high scores in gymnastics or ice skating are. They are judgmental scores done by imperfect people - us! They are not something we can look at with definitive knowlege (scoring the most points or goals within a time limit) and say - see that. I believe the explanation that is most plausible was one given to us earlier that said BD was x amount of points better than the second place score.

You are exactly on - the judges need to manage their numbers. We are told time and time again, that when you judge, you must keep in mind the number of groups that follow. It's a must, which is why, as a judge you need to be aware of what groups are scoring, especially in what you are judging. Keeping track of those things are a must in any organization that judges in a circuit of any kind and especially for championships that may have a draw of some kind in the finals (where you pull numbers out of a hat).

Then someone has no guts (judges) to say - they are not doing enough in the visual catagory, which effectively is affecting the GE, and are doing just what I have said, going along with crowd because this is truly "the emporer has no clothes" show for the brass line.

I hope they slip because it's an "the Emporer is wearing no clothes show". It just doesn't have any visual chops at all for the brass. Great music, great guard, great percussion, nada on anything else.

No, not really. I like listening to this show. The horn line really plays well. As well as anyone I've heard in past few years and really reminds of earlier BD horn lines. But the visual show for the Brass is awful. They might as well sit down behind the perc pit and play like a big band jazz group. The guard and percussion line have a much more difficult book. The horn line walks to several sets the parks and barks, then does a couple FTL moves into variations on the basic block. Rarely do they move and play anything, let alone anything difficult. There is rarely any movement that makes any sense while standing, it's usually a Freeform individual soloist style mvt while standing and several Freeform movements between sets. I'm plent impressed with music and it's achievement, but GE wise, there is nothing visually that does much of anything. Music credit, but no visual credit in GE and it should be scored like that. High brass scores. Visual credit in achievement, but low scores in difficulty should be given to them visually. There are two areas where they should not be getting much credit, which to me is really playing with fire. Maybe it's a reverse psychology move from the Bluecoats, but I think the coats are much closer if not better than in Guard and Perc. They have a great brass line, but not in league of BD, but then do you factor in what movement is being done while a form is not visuall moving somewhere on the field, but instead is movement by the performers that adds to the difficulty of what is being played? Are we being forced into choosing as fans or is DCI being forced into looking at something more carefully, like the direction of what they allowing, or into saying what is most important to our members or fans? Are the judges having to choose what difficulties are more difficult according to the sheets and scoring system? Am I losing my mind - yes!

I agree on every point you make. My one over riding factor this year, and maybe it's just me, is that I'm less than impressed with the winds drill that BD is putting out. Other than the warm up tag at the beginning, which I love, being a huge chunk of Chuck Mangiones "Legend of a One Eyed Sailor" and snippets from several old time favorites like "Dindi", "Pegasus", "Channel One Suite", "T.O." , among other favorites, they really do just above nothing. A lot of Freeform drill, walking out of time to the music to get in place, several block forms, each done in angles or flexed to not quite look like blocks, plenty of FTL, some jumping around and that's it. There is no difficulty whatsoever and there is plenty of park and bark at which most of it is stand in place, no planned movement at all. Great horn line, great guard drill - opposite of the winds - and even plenty of movement with the percussion. I can't understand the scoring going on in GE or visual. I'm stunned by people who tell me it's the greatest show BD has ever done, because right now I'm not impressed in that area at all and I've watched every show available. I'm not a BD hater, they are the classiest organization in DCI. No one can touch their approach to each season, nor can anyone approach they way they go about things. It's magnificent what they have done and they will probably never finish outside the medals for who knows how long and they are always a veteran corps because of their set up. It's a family organization that every corps should be trying to replicate in so many ways because it would provide stability to organizations that need it. But this show doesn't make sense to me, especially considering the past 6 of really incredible show ideas and productions!

I agree that everyone has issues, that's fine, but to try and belittle someone else's opinion because you have a belief in your own opinion is not what any of this is about. Quit trying to make yourself look like you know everything and are right on everything as you are not. You've been called out by three other people about this in this subject posting alone. Everyone has a right to an opinion, be it good or bad, including you. The deal is to have have a constructive conversation out of it and not make the other person feel like an idiot for posting a question or opinion. That's how people walk away from things and last I heard, DCI would more informed people who understand what they are seeing and listening to, not just someone who gets turned off by people who would rather try to show them up by explaining in a way that makes them feel stupid. No, that's the thing that doesn't get a decent conversation out of anyone, my friend.

Yes you can. If you can't, it's because you don't understand judging. The only thing you have correctly said is that 81.9 on one night is not 81.9 on another night. You cannot recreate environmental factors, but the fact that judges place a number on it, means you can compare it. Is an 81.9 given to a corps comparable as a corps winning with an 81.9 in another place - yes it is because it's a national linear scale used by all adjudicators for this specific set of performances. If they are put back to back, probably not, but it will not be an 81.9 and then a 77.5. They are going to be in the same range, in other words close and possibly the same if the judges are using the same system. If you have different systems, with different categories, more or less judges in one place or another, I'd agree, but it was not the case, so they are comparable because the adjudicators with the same training and the same system gave the scores. You can argue all you want about place, time, performance venue, etc, but it comes back to the same thing. It can be compared.

I think it can be answered by saying, you are seeing a majority of drill designers or visual teams, come from a background of WGI or Color Guard background. If you look at what is dominating the landscape right now it is BOA, and WGI with its preponderance of Color Guard, Indoor Winds and Percussion shows. They have always had more of a flare towards a Theatrical productions centered around around the guard - take a look at the amount of props, scenery, tarps, etc on the field. It's really a continuation of Gail Royers' vision that he talked about in the late 80's when he said that he saw the direction of Drum Corps headed toward stage productions on the field. Not saying one or the other is good or bad, but it's been the incremental push towards what we have on the field now, including the micing, speakers, etc.

Nobody said that, stop making this some kind of pissing match and have a decent constructive conversation, rather than acting like someone else attacked your reason for living.

Yes you can, you have to look closely, but it can be done. It's not like judges only judge once, then aren't hired again, and it's not like they don't talk to each other. There will be judges that judge the same corps again and it's human nature to have expectations from those other adjudications.

This could all get interesting with Crown hitting 81.9, Cavies 79.85, Cadets 78.45 and Boston a 77 in Orlando, wow! This will get shaken out in a couple of weeks in San Antonio, but the scoring tonight will make for some interesting talk over the next few days!

It wasn't necessarily that bugles were louder in key or the other. It's the technicalities and specifications that the instruments are to. The bores on the instruments are not as big for one thing, which is the biggest spec that reduced the sound. I'm a French Horn player and my Holton Farkas model double horn was the largest bore (inside radius of the tubing) that was made at the time. I could play louder than many others in my section, when I could control the sound from going out of tune and/or split or spread, terms we used when the sound was not right on 440 (perfect tuning for each pitch), which was a problem for the two valve bugles. The third valve gives an instrument the ability to play certain notes more in tune because several notes require that valve to be used. The key of G was also very limiting for arrangers in the keys that could be used, for the same reason. Since they are all instruments based off the same fingerlings for certain octaves they were playing in and having no third valve to keep the tuning centered on some notes, there were notes that most arrangers stayed away from, especially having more than one section play a certain note in a scale together (if a soprano bugle and a French horn bugle were trying to play together, if they matched up on a pitch an octave away from each other, tuning is very easy or rather notes not in tune are easily heard. Arrangers stayed away from certain keys because of notes that needed valves 1,3 or 2,3 played together. Because bores were larger, buglers had the tendency to go all out and not being able to hear yourself in large groups, playing loudly, well you see where this goes. Just my two cents on it, but the ability to play more technical passages, more difficult music arrangements, more in tune, gave in to what we have now. I know this about putting sounds through mics and processors, and that for me is another dicey object, but the move to three valve bugles or whatever we call them now, for my money, has been a good move - however I long for the Madison long notes at the ends of shows, the Spirit sound advisory signs, company fronts that brought the house down or the Blue Devils tight curl in "When A Man Loves A Woman" moving across the field. Those were great days.

Nope, I like the Vanguard and would to see them back on top or in the medals.