Some Allentown Frustration

[cire]

If that is true then its sad.

sally, I really do think that it does matter even this early when everything is this tight at the top.

this happens.. with DCI corps.. DCA corps.. Div 1. Div 2 Div 3.. Open Class.. Class A.. high school bands.. winter drumlines.. winterguard.. etc.

some judges favor certain groups.. some judges disfavor certain groups. judges arent robots and yes, judging is supposed to be fair and with no favoritism.. but it happens.

[Pinwiz]

And I'll just throw it out there... Troop's Allentown score was below where they were last Saturday. I'm sure there are other examples of similar situations. I'm not exactly going to QQ over Crown. :)

[audiodb]

Rank and rate has to .. and should go OUT the window.

I'm starting to think that myself.

I'm seeing that when the corps all meet at big regionals, the "rank first, then rate" edict causes judges to distort scores and exaggerate spreads to ensure they can rank the corps properly in their caption (or, in most cases, in each of their subcaptions). Corps spread out, thus increasing the potential for slotting. Lower corps' scores stagnate, or even drop, to accomodate the "rank, then rate" mentality.

What if judges approached a major regional with the mindset solely to "rate"?

[AFcorpsvette]

I'm starting to think that myself.

I'm seeing that when the corps all meet at big regionals, the "rank first, then rate" edict causes judges to distort scores and exaggerate spreads to ensure they can rank the corps properly in their caption (or, in most cases, in each of their subcaptions). Corps spread out, thus increasing the potential for slotting. Lower corps' scores stagnate, or even drop, to accomodate the "rank, then rate" mentality.

What if judges approached a major regional with the mindset solely to "rate"?

What if? I imagine it might be a good thing. The only thing that might go bad is that it gives judges a little more freedom to show bias. Still though, it would certainly be better than the slotting and rank that goes on now.

[Shimes]

As long as the judges have the "oh I give this corps a XX.xx outt their heads, we will have this "problem". Go back to ticks and see who really is the best drum line rather than play a guessing game.

[Tone Quality Matters]

It's been said lots of times before, but it bears repeating from time to time:

, a score a Corps receives is ONLY in relationship and in COMPARISON to other Corps in that particular show competitition. The scores have absolutely no bearing whatsoever to other scores that may have taken place at other nites, with other Corps.

You believe this, I have some beach front property in Idaho I will sell you, real cheap. These judges are very aware of scores from previous nights.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Tone Quality Matters

[KevinRomano]

It's really quite simple to explain. Allen Kristensen was judging. Crown has been consistently way ahead of Boston the entire season. The only times that Boston has been ahead is when Kristensen judged them. For that matter, Kristensen has knocked Crown virtually every time he has judged them for the last few years.

Two points:

1) I think this was the first time there was a percussion judge on the field instead of in the stands. That might have impacted the scores in general.

2) Spirit drop was actually a correction from the 4 point bump up the night before. Not a negative toward Spirit but 4 point bump in one night for anyone is a bit odd.

[Nizerifin]

Then why fill the back of the sheet with BOX criteria? Why put a point scale based on that criteria? How does your argument hold weight on finals night when 4-7 (or more) corps have a legitimate shot of maxing out their shows and deserving of HIGH Box 5 numbers? Rank and rate has to .. and should go OUT the window. Whether my concerns are confirmed this year or not .. the day is coming when you do have an excessive number of elite corps who have the design and performance at winning levels. Then what do you do? Add a tick caption?

As stated prior, I understand your rationale and agree that it's the reality we live with in modern day drum corps, but the model currently used is finally getting to the point where they will have no choice but to make a change in that system or hand out the same numbers to several corps and live with it. Final thought, it's almost getting to the point where scoring them at all, is a waste of time. If every corps continues to raise their game, as they have the past couple of years, at what point does this scoring method cave in on itself and require sweeping change?

I seriously thought the top 10 deserved to break 90 last year (based on the sheets and the box criteria). Maybe this year the top 8 will break 95 ... or even higher ..... do the math on all the subcaptions and see how many tenths you can separate the corps without handing out 10's across the board to the winning corps. It's rediculous at best.

The box descriptions and criteria still leave a lot of interpretation for judges to sludge through. It's all subjective, meaning different things to different judges. I think judges will keep the scores close if the corps are actually competitively close, such as this year. But to think that all corps in "Box 5" should get the same score doesn't make sense. Just because they're all Box 5-ers doesn't mean that they are all the same quality within box 5. Most corps probably end up in box.

Box 5 probably is the same as 8-10 pts in a subcaption. Last night, BD got a 8.9 for GE Visual Rep, while the Cavies got an 8.8. Both corps are in box 5 in that respect but BD is a smidgen better.

[rut-roh]

Unfortunately for Crown, it is true. Simply go back and look at the numbers.

The difference, though, is that you're looking at it as if he's just seeing "Carolina Crown" and automatically putting a low number down. When anyone with ears can tell you that Crown's percussion book and performance this year is very different than it was in the past. Because Lee Beddis is now running the program. Alan knows this. So while you're going back to see how Kristensen has judged Crown's drumlines in the past, you should also go back and look at the numbers he's given Lee Beddis' previous drumlines. I took a quick glance at the lines he had with Glassmen and Crossmen, and I'd say he's been more than fair with Lee's lines at the "big shows." I realize these don't represent EVERY show he ever judged a Lee Beddis drumline, but I think it's more than enough to show that he's not a judge who goes out to dump Lee's lines for no good reason.

Glassmen 1999

DCI semifinals

AK had them 5th

the corps finished 5th

Glassmen 2000

AK had them 8th

the corps finished 8th

Crossmen 2002

Indianapolis regional

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2002

DCI Finals

AK had them 6th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

Indianapolis regional

AK had them 6th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

San Antonio regional

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

DCI Finals

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

[DCIBrassFan]

The difference, though, is that you're looking at it as if he's just seeing "Carolina Crown" and automatically putting a low number down. When anyone with ears can tell you that Crown's percussion book and performance this year is very different than it was in the past. Because Lee Beddis is now running the program. Alan knows this. So while you're going back to see how Kristensen has judged Crown's drumlines in the past, you should also go back and look at the numbers he's given Lee Beddis' previous drumlines. I took a quick glance at the lines he had with Glassmen and Crossmen, and I'd say he's been more than fair with Lee's lines at the "big shows." I realize these don't represent EVERY show he ever judged a Lee Beddis drumline, but I think it's more than enough to show that he's not a judge who goes out to dump Lee's lines for no good reason.

Glassmen 1999

DCI semifinals

AK had them 5th

the corps finished 5th

Glassmen 2000

AK had them 8th

the corps finished 8th

Crossmen 2002

Indianapolis regional

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2002

DCI Finals

AK had them 6th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

Indianapolis regional

AK had them 6th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

San Antonio regional

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

Crossmen 2003

DCI Finals

AK had them 7th

the corps finished 9th

All of that is fine and dandy. However, as stated way earlier in this thread, Crown has been consistently WAY ahead of groups such as Boston the entire season. The only exception is the two times that Kristensen has been the judge.

Date, Scores, Judge

6/21 Crown 14.7, BAC 14.3 Martin Griffin

6/22 Crown 15.4, BAC 14.4 Glenn Fugett

6/23 Crown 15.4, BAC 14.8 Chris Romanowski

6/25 Crown 15.5, BAC 14.7 Chris Romanowski

***6/26 Crown 14.5, BAC 14.7 Allan Kristensen

6/28 Crown 15.5, BAC 15.0 Rich Zamperini

6/29 Crown 15.7, BAC 14.7 Neil Sylvia

6/30 Crown 16.0, BAC 14.8 Jeff Prosperie

7/2 Crown 16.1, BAC 15.5 JJ Pipitone

7/4 Crown 16.1, BAC 15.5 Neil Sylvia

7/6 Crown 16.1, BAC 15.6 Jason Hall

7/7 Crown 16/9, BAC 16.5 JJ Pipitone

***7/7 Crown 15.6, BAC 15.7 Allan Kristensen

The numbers don't lie. Never said that he had anything against Lee Beddis. But his number over a few years say that he does have something against Carolina Crown.