Some Allentown Frustration

[Feathers Up]

Interesting Katy. I wondered if that was the case.

That average seemed right on based on what though? I will admit the 1st score might have been a little high but they scored higher than that average many shows ago and and have been at or around 16.1 in other shows. If they were getting scored too high then it wouldnt be by everyone, and everyone seemed to have them between 16.1 and 16.4 about 5 shows ago. If it was one judge at one show skyrocketing their score on one night then i can see an argument for them being ballooned over what they deserve. Are they not supposed to show improvement in score over a week and a half span? I doubt it.

Look at Crown's average Perc. score=16.25

Crown's last four shows prior=16.10....16.10....16.40...16.10

And there are plenty of corps who could use the argument of not showing improvement from over a week ago..Regiment had a 16.70 over a week ago and scored a 17.00 last night...SCV was scoring above a 16.10 in Music GE a week ago also. And the average score I think they were talking about is in regards to the gap between them and Regiment being constant.

[Tom Brace]

I just spent an hour making a database for one corps and entering all the judges who have scored them along with the score they gave. I then sorted to see if there were any patterns. All I can say is that I believe I will know where this corps will fall at finals depending on the judging panel who is there.

In the case I tried there is a very obvious pattern for certain judges to score the corps poorly and if they are on the judging panel, this corps will have a hard time winning. Conversely if they draw another panel they should have a better chance.

There were some judges who were in the middle and had mixed ratings on different nights. I can only hope they are the ones who are chosen for finals. I would have more confidence that the best performer at that show won because they seem to be scoring the shows depending on the show presented that night rather than a preconceived bias.

disclaimer: I am a drumcorps mom with a geeky streak, I am not an expert. There are probably other ways to interpret the data and I did not take into consideration who the corps was marching against, just the relative placement. It was just interesting that's all.

Don't worry...I ordered you a life on ebay. It should arrive middle of next week. I didn't want you to have to wait any longer.

[Tom Brace]

Hey...here's an idea..Crown's drumline was dirty from the vantage point of that judge. PERIOD. End of discussion.

[katysand]

Don't worry...I ordered you a life on ebay. It should arrive middle of next week. I didn't want you to have to wait any longer.

Thanks for the thoughtfulness. Every summer I get like this during drumcorps season.....It seems to go away without medication come the fall. :P

[VKMello84]

Why is it that the percussion judges can be very consistent for everyone but crown?

How does one know that Crown's drum line might not have some sort of deficiency in consistency of performance?

Also, until they have just one guy doing the judging in each caption, there are going to be differences in philosophies which will have an impact of placements from time to time.

[supersop]

It's been said lots of times before, but it bears repeating from time to time:

Do not make the mistake of comparing scores from other shows. If you do, it will make you crazy and you will never come to grips with how scores are reached. Simply put, a score a Corps receives is ONLY in relationship and in COMPARISON to other Corps in that particular show competitition. The scores have absolutely no bearing whatsoever to other scores that may have taken place at other nites, with other Corps. This is why we sometimes see scores go up and down..... becuse the competition listing of Corps has changed.

This is why the " current rankings of Corps " we see on here at DCP is fun and all, but it's value is essentially meaningless, unless one factors in head to head competition results and scoring differentials in head to head competition within those rankings. I wouldn't sweat the scores and placements if I'm a Crown fan anyway. They are not going to win DCI this year. Would you rather have your favorite Corps finish ( say ) 6th or 7th and be one of the fan's favorite Corps, or finish higher ( say 5th ), but be considered blase by most fans ? I'd rather be the former than the latter if 1st is not in the cards.

Even though I know you speak the truth about reality ... this is the one thing that STINKS about drum corps and the marching arts in general.

Simply put, the judges have sheets with alot of information on the back. That information tells them how they should score a corps based on their performance and design. NOWHERE on those sheets does it say anything about how to RANK a corps in comparison to another corps on any given night......... PERIOD!

I would like to think that scores go up and down because the corps didn't perform as well on one night compared to another night ..... comparing their OWN performance to themselves ... not another corps.

I would also like to think that if, come finals, 7 corps deserve a 9.9 in a caption .. they would all get a 9.9. How on earth are they going to justify giving a corps a 9.0 when they deserve a 9.9 just to make room for the other 6 corps that might follow them? MEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In regards to the argument of Crowns percussion score variances. There was a point made about vantage points giving different impressions and there was a point made that there is judging bias. To the first point, maybe the tuning of the drums (or something) is creating a problem with the projected sound of the instrument, making things sound dirty that really aren't? Not sure, but I get fooled sometimes based on where I sit and what Brand of drums they're playing (and how they are set up). To the second point ......... it happens. What are ya gonna do? <**>

[dundermifflin]

Regardless of what some might think of the judges' lack of consistency regarding Crown, Alan Kristensen(sp?) has been a quality judge for a long time. It is possible that Crown's drumline had a bad night. I, personally, don't care what happens to Crown's scores but as far as judges go, Alan's one of the best DCI has to offer, like it or not.

[Nizerifin]

Even though I know you speak the truth about reality ... this is the one thing that STINKS about drum corps and the marching arts in general.

Simply put, the judges have sheets with alot of information on the back. That information tells them how they should score a corps based on their performance and design. NOWHERE on those sheets does it say anything about how to RANK a corps in comparison to another corps on any given night......... PERIOD!

I would like to think that scores go up and down because the corps didn't perform as well on one night compared to another night ..... comparing their OWN performance to themselves ... not another corps.

I would also like to think that if, come finals, 7 corps deserve a 9.9 in a caption .. they would all get a 9.9. How on earth are they going to justify giving a corps a 9.0 when they deserve a 9.9 just to make room for the other 6 corps that might follow them? MEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're putting way too much importance on numbers. The 100-pt. scale merely allows judges to convey subjective values in some concrete form. Corps don't "deserve" any number. They are merely ranked and given a number based on a comparison between corps x and y. If a drumline y is better than drumline x, judge 1 may think that the difference is .2 or judge 2 may think the difference is .4. No matter, they both thought that drumline y is better than drumline x.

[supersop]

You're putting way too much importance on numbers. The 100-pt. scale merely allows judges to convey subjective values in some concrete form. Corps don't "deserve" any number. They are merely ranked and given a number based on a comparison between corps x and y. If a drumline y is better than drumline x, judge 1 may think that the difference is .2 or judge 2 may think the difference is .4. No matter, they both thought that drumline y is better than drumline x.

Then why fill the back of the sheet with BOX criteria? Why put a point scale based on that criteria? How does your argument hold weight on finals night when 4-7 (or more) corps have a legitimate shot of maxing out their shows and deserving of HIGH Box 5 numbers? Rank and rate has to .. and should go OUT the window. Whether my concerns are confirmed this year or not .. the day is coming when you do have an excessive number of elite corps who have the design and performance at winning levels. Then what do you do? Add a tick caption?

As stated prior, I understand your rationale and agree that it's the reality we live with in modern day drum corps, but the model currently used is finally getting to the point where they will have no choice but to make a change in that system or hand out the same numbers to several corps and live with it. Final thought, it's almost getting to the point where scoring them at all, is a waste of time. If every corps continues to raise their game, as they have the past couple of years, at what point does this scoring method cave in on itself and require sweeping change?

I seriously thought the top 10 deserved to break 90 last year (based on the sheets and the box criteria). Maybe this year the top 8 will break 95 ... or even higher ..... do the math on all the subcaptions and see how many tenths you can separate the corps without handing out 10's across the board to the winning corps. It's rediculous at best.

[year1buick]

To be honest, I've never been one to get too much into the minutia of recaps and subcaption scores. (About as fun to me as watching Congressional recounts on C-SPAN.) But then, to each his own... :)