Pioneer scores

[arussell]

Sure they are a fine organization, but do they really work as hard as the rest? Wouldn't the scores and placements be higher if they did? It can't all be blamed on show design or the fact that the members are young. Time is being wasted somewhere. The argument "they work as hard as everyone else" doesn't go well with me.

I've seen why some corps place as low as they do and it isn't due to show design, young membership, or even the quality of the staff. It's due to wasted time in rehearsals. It's due to the members not working their ##### off. Poor attitudes, poor work ethics, poor discipline.

FOR THE RECORD!!!! I'm not saying this is Pioneer's problem at all, but in general it does happen. Just getting my point across by using examples that time does get wasted by the membership. Which will leave the corps saying, "If we only had one more week"

Give me a break.... This is the single least informed drum corps opinion I have ever seen. Let me ask you a question, If you had to wake up every day and put in 8 hours of hard work knowing that you are in dead last in every caption, would you be as motivated as the group sitting in third place overall? Of course there is a motivation backlash that takes place in a corps consistently placing at the bottom of the standings. However, to say that effort alone is the cause for a low score is quite possibly the most underinformed opinoin I have ever read/heard. Have you ever marched junior corps? It really seems like you have not. Im sure those kids work extremely hard. With a younger age, comes a slightly less sophisticated cognition. It takes longer for the intricicies of high level drumcorps to sink in. It just does.... Not to mention issues with show design, administration, and the fact that DCI is making the road really tough on low placing corps. I have seen many Pioneer corps, and this one is one of the better, better than some of the Div. II championship corps. Give them a chance, because the judges certainly aren't.

[triplefunk]

where do I get recordings of Pioneer? like 2007 -> 1993

DCI.org I believe has everything there.

[MikeN]

where do I get recordings of Pioneer? like 2007 -> 1993

1992 - 2001 can be found at http://www.pioneer-corps.org/media/audio.htm.

Mike

[TenorsForWorldDomination]

Give me a break.... This is the single least informed drum corps opinion I have ever seen. Let me ask you a question, If you had to wake up every day and put in 8 hours of hard work knowing that you are in dead last in every caption, would you be as motivated as the group sitting in third place overall? Of course there is a motivation backlash that takes place in a corps consistently placing at the bottom of the standings. However, to say that effort alone is the cause for a low score is quite possibly the most underinformed opinoin I have ever read/heard. Have you ever marched junior corps? It really seems like you have not. Im sure those kids work extremely hard. With a younger age, comes a slightly less sophisticated cognition. It takes longer for the intricicies of high level drumcorps to sink in. It just does.... Not to mention issues with show design, administration, and the fact that DCI is making the road really tough on low placing corps. I have seen many Pioneer corps, and this one is one of the better, better than some of the Div. II championship corps. Give them a chance, because the judges certainly aren't.

I have been in that situation and worked just as hard. I have also been at the other end and work just the same. It has no affect on me. Don't give me that crap!

Check the sig...I marched in Empire Loyalists from 1993-1996. They were a Div III corps who traveled more than most, especially since being from Canada. It's a lot harder to travel and afford travel, especially back then when our dollar was crap.

I moved to all-age corps simply because my area no longer had a junior corps and I refuse to travel to practices. So I went to an all-age corps and got a better music education than I could have being with the junior corps I was with.

[ouooga]

I think we're starting to get a little off topic, but Pioneer and their placements I've wondered about for a few years now.

I know they are a young corps, but there are a lot of young corps out there (like Boston apparently). Is Pioneer the youngest this year? I'm not sure. And they tour more and see more judges than a lot of corps that end up finishing higher than them.

Don't they usually win DCM? I mean, DCM isn't a joke or anything, so obviously Pioneer has some power there, right?

I don't know. I remember that when I started in this activity that I thought (please don't bash me for this statement, I was uneducated and know better now) Pioneer was just bad. They took last. But at the time, I also thought the only two corps who had ever won were Blue Devils and Cavaliers, and that the only reason to march in another corps was to get good enough to join them. I know better now, believe me I do!

But here's the thing...I've seen Pioneer, they are a blast to watch! And I remember finals week in 04, at the Yamaha booth, some kid just walked up to the new Yamaha trumpet, pulled out a mouthpiece, and just played a Double C cold. Looked at the horn, said it sounded "ok" and walked away. Turned out that guy marched Pioneer. They have quality players, and they have quality shows. And their kids are so dedicated. There was a dude there in '04 with one leg!!!! And he marched the show!

They are Division 1, they are way better than any Division 2 corps I've ever seen that didn't move on to D1 the next year. They work hard, they do what the judges ask. I don't know, it just makes me mad, I guess, that the back end of the bunch doesn't change up, even a little, like the front end does. I know a few corps switch around, but Pioneer took last for a few years in a row and I don't believe they deserve to. I hate to say it, but maybe it is DCI judging. Really, it just seems like every year they should be building and improving...which they absolutely are!, except it's not really reflected in their scores and placements and I've never really understood why.

[Richard]

How do you get information like this? I'm not doubting it, I'd just like to know where such stats are available. Are they published somewhere?

www.dcisurvey.com

It is worth noting that neither Pioneer or Mandarins are on the list, and it would not surprise me to find out that Boston is indeed the 6th youngest. Still, Glassmen and Academy are fairly young corps and they both have very realistic chances of making finals.

They are Division 1, they are way better than any Division 2 corps I've ever seen that didn't move on to D1 the next year.

I'm not so sure about this. ECJ and Spartans have been very good the past 3 years. Academy in 2005, 2 years before they moved up, could have probably given Pioneer a run for their money as well. We'll never know, but I think its disputable.

At the first show of the season, I stood in front of the horn arc in pre show warm up. I asked those kids the question, "For how many of you is this your first drum corps show?"...3/4 of the horn line raised their hand. The staff knows what we have for a vehicle, and what the numbers and talent levels are we have to work with.

...

I just want to give the kids the credit they deserve. They keep trying!

Donny

Donny, thank you for providing some insight to the inner workings of your corps. I certainly hope you did not take offense to my remarks, I was only trying to provide another perspective/explanation to Pioneer’s situation. I have no doubt that you and the rest of the staff are providing these kids with an amazing and fulfilling experience. You did make an excellent point about performance time at shows. I think this affects a lot corps not only because of the environmental conditions they have to perform in, but also the way that they are judged. It’s pretty well known that judges must almost always ‘leave room’ on the recap in case a later-performing corps is better in a caption, which puts the earlier-performing corps at a distinct disadvantage, not necessarily in terms of placement, but definitely in terms of overall score.

EDIT: #### you HTML

Edited July 18, 2007 by Richard

[Galen]

Don't they usually win DCM? I mean, DCM isn't a joke or anything, so obviously Pioneer has some power there, right?

DCM's been dead for 2 or 3 years; the only reason Pioneer won the last two DCM div 1 titles was because they were the only div 1 corps competing. But that's another story.

Bottom line, I believe it comes down to the judging community not liking what the corps does or the style of shows they do (still on G horns, remember).

[Harvey]

Boston Crusaders are the 4th youngest corps in DCI, and they’re almost a lock to make finals.

Uhhhh, not quite. This is straight from Boston's website:

"Boston Crusaders was founded in 1940 and is the third-oldest drum and bugle corps in the United States."

Check your facts before publishing them, sonny.

[Galen]

Uhhhh, not quite. This is straight from Boston's website:

"Boston Crusaders was founded in 1940 and is the third-oldest drum and bugle corps in the United States."

Check your facts before publishing them, sonny.

I think the poster was commenting on the age of the individual members, not the corps as an organization.

[Harvey]

Then he should have stated "the average age of Boston's members is the Xth youngest in DCI".

(Sorry, just being picky).

Edited July 18, 2007 by Harvey