Switching from a G hornline to a Bb line

[TicTickyTic]

Brass Attack has a nice set of Kanstul G bugles. I've been a G guy sice I got my first P/R bari back in the day. I own my own Kanstul G bari. I think they are superior when you are playing them 12 hours a day all summer long. You get acclimated to the horns, and your Bb habits are left at home.

Believe me, I like G horns. As far as I'm concerned the best bugles had 2 valves.

But I'm running a mini corps that rehearses like every other week. 6 hours a month. There are not 60 of us playing power chords in a stadium.

Honestly, our intonation is not what I'd like it to be. Especially the sops. I do work on it, but again, we rehearse 6 hours a month. These are guys that play Bb trumpets fairly often for the most part. I'm wondering how much I should be blaming the guys (in the end a musician should be able to play any horn in tune), and how much I should be blaming the horns (more like I'm blaming the horn in that it creates a new set of parameters that my guys are not managing perfectly). An expert musician might not have a problem with the transition. I know there are guys that switch from Bb to C to D to Eb trumpets constantly. I'd love to have 36 of those guys in my hornline.

The questions:

Is staying with the G horns just creating an additional hurdle that my membership has to overcome?

For those hornlines who have made the change, did it have positive effect on the ensemble sound?

I'm just asking for peoples experiences. Please don't turn this into that same old tired debate.

[MikeD]

Brass Attack has a nice set of Kanstul G bugles. I've been a G guy sice I got my first P/R bari back in the day. I own my own Kanstul G bari. I think they are superior when you are playing them 12 hours a day all summer long. You get acclimated to the horns, and your Bb habits are left at home.

Believe me, I like G horns. As far as I'm concerned the best bugles had 2 valves.

But I'm running a mini corps that rehearses like every other week. 6 hours a month. There are not 60 of us playing power chords in a stadium.

Honestly, our intonation is not what I'd like it to be. Especially the sops. I do work on it, but again, we rehearse 6 hours a month. These are guys that play Bb trumpets fairly often for the most part. I'm wondering how much I should be blaming the guys (in the end a musician should be able to play any horn in tune), and how much I should be blaming the horns (more like I'm blaming the horn in that it creates a new set of parameters that my guys are not managing perfectly). An expert musician might not have a problem with the transition. I know there are guys that switch from Bb to C to D to Eb trumpets constantly. I'd love to have 36 of those guys in my hornline.

The questions:

Is staying with the G horns just creating an additional hurdle that my membership has to overcome?

For those hornlines who have made the change, did it have positive effect on the ensemble sound?

I'm just asking for peoples experiences. Please don't turn this into that same old tired debate.

I haven't done it, so take this for what it is worth....if I had a group that rehearsed as little as yours, and the players were pleying their 'regular' horns often in the same timeframe, IMO it would just make sense for them to play in the key they are using most of their playing time, if that is an option for you.

[Geneva]

I, too, love the sound of a good G line, particularly the edge on the sopranos in the upper register. However, I have found that for indoor playing the wider slots with the added intonation difficulties inherent in G instruments is a significant hurdle for the quality of the ensemble. I have played on G's and B flat's for years so I have a pretty good understanding of just where these pitfalls lie, yet as an amateur brass player this does represent a significant compensatory challenge to me.

I feel that the B flats probably have an advantage in the indoor setting where the pitch demands outweigh the carrying power needed outdoors (much as it pains me to say that).

Brass Attack has a nice set of Kanstul G bugles. I've been a G guy sice I got my first P/R bari back in the day. I own my own Kanstul G bari. I think they are superior when you are playing them 12 hours a day all summer long. You get acclimated to the horns, and your Bb habits are left at home.

Believe me, I like G horns. As far as I'm concerned the best bugles had 2 valves.

But I'm running a mini corps that rehearses like every other week. 6 hours a month. There are not 60 of us playing power chords in a stadium.

Honestly, our intonation is not what I'd like it to be. Especially the sops. I do work on it, but again, we rehearse 6 hours a month. These are guys that play Bb trumpets fairly often for the most part. I'm wondering how much I should be blaming the guys (in the end a musician should be able to play any horn in tune), and how much I should be blaming the horns (more like I'm blaming the horn in that it creates a new set of parameters that my guys are not managing perfectly). An expert musician might not have a problem with the transition. I know there are guys that switch from Bb to C to D to Eb trumpets constantly. I'd love to have 36 of those guys in my hornline.

The questions:

Is staying with the G horns just creating an additional hurdle that my membership has to overcome?

For those hornlines who have made the change, did it have positive effect on the ensemble sound?

I'm just asking for peoples experiences. Please don't turn this into that same old tired debate.

[Dennis Argul]

Please everyone........

go to www.windsongpress.com

There you can read about Arnold Jacobs and the "Chicago way" (to quote the Untouchables!).

It is all about the wind and song baby! I don't care what key, make or model of horn you are blowing into, if there is no gas in the engine, you ain't goin' nowhere, and if the song is wrong, then nobody cares how loud and bad it will sound.

Wind and Song.

That's really about it.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Dennis

[Cabstuba04]

Please everyone........

go to www.windsongpress.com

There you can read about Arnold Jacobs and the "Chicago way" (to quote the Untouchables!).

It is all about the wind and song baby! I don't care what key, make or model of horn you are blowing into, if there is no gas in the engine, you ain't goin' nowhere, and if the song is wrong, then nobody cares how loud and bad it will sound.

Wind and Song.

That's really about it.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Dennis

NICE!!!!!!!

[kevingamin]

There you can read about Arnold Jacobs and the "Chicago way" (to quote the Untouchables!).

Capone sends his guy with a Bb trumpet, you send your guy with a G bugle. He sends your guy home with ringing ears, you send his home DEAF. And THAT'S the CHICAGO WAY! :D

[DDANN]

I play a Bb baritone in Scout House Alumni and a G in Bridgemen.

I live close to Scout House so I get to rehearse and play with them almost every Thursday evening and we have about 18 shows or parades every year. Bridgemen have seven rehearsals during the winter, five shows during the summer, and perhaps three or four other engagements during the spring.

Believe me, switching back and forth is a problem. I know instinctively what every note sounds like on my Bb but it takes me 30 to 40 minutes at every Bridgemen rehearsal to get "the feel" of my G and start "fitting in" with everyone else. I do find the G is easier to play in terms of range and "volume". But accuracy? Quality? Not so much!

When I play the G at home by myself I feel I'm playing correctly. But when I play with the ensemble I play very tentatively until "my ear" gets back in tune and I re-gain my confidence in the sound.

My advice! Go to Bb as soon as you can afford it.

[kevingamin]

I play a Bb baritone in Scout House Alumni and a G in Bridgemen.

I live close to Scout House so I get to rehearse and play with them almost every Thursday evening and we have about 18 shows or parades every year. Bridgemen have seven rehearsals during the winter, five shows during the summer, and perhaps three or four other engagements during the spring.

Believe me, switching back and forth is a problem. I know instinctively what every note sounds like on my Bb but it takes me 30 to 40 minutes at every Bridgemen rehearsal to get "the feel" of my G and start "fitting in" with everyone else. I do find the G is easier to play in terms of range and "volume". But accuracy? Quality? Not so much!

When I play the G at home by myself I feel I'm playing correctly. But when I play with the ensemble I play very tentatively until "my ear" gets back in tune and I re-gain my confidence in the sound.

My advice! Go to Bb as soon as you can afford it.

Ironically, I have the opposite issue as yours. I've played G only for so long, I hear notes in G. On the rare occasion I play a "concert" instrument, such as a Bb baritone, I have to essentially "reset" my pitch awareness.

[brassomaniac]

We have a mixed situation here;

we have guys who only play Bb and others who have a G backgrpund and have been converted over to just playing Bb with us. Even 2 guys who, less frequently, still play with G corps'.

Switching back and forth IS a problem for less experienced players. If most are playing Bb outside the mini-corps - keep them on Bb.

Guys who are used to Bb will be more comfortable - and better - with their own horns; even if they are advanced players and CAN switch back and forth.

Speaking specifically of the upper voices: I've found it much easier to get good intonation out of a mixed Bb line, than a homogenous G line. For amatuer players; I strongly feel that good Bb's are simply easier to play in tune.

There has been VERY LITTLE adjustment for those of our players coming over to Bb. The biggest adjustment has been for a few to get used to playing with a stage group, after only having experience in field and street corps (read that: learning not to play so LOUD!)

For a line rehearsing bi-weekly - with less-than-pro players who mostly play on Bb's in between; YES , I think you're making it harder on yourself.

The combination of the above make it a better decision to use Bb; IMHO.

As far as the results:

We'll see in a few weeks.

We'll have a brass ensemble and mini-corps in competition, and we'll see what the judges think.

Edited August 9, 2007 by brassomaniac

[TicTickyTic]

Wind and Song.

That's really about it.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Dennis

Yer preaching to the choir Dennis. I was fortunate to have met Arnold Jacobs, and participated in an incredible 3 day workshop with him. I took lessons from his close friend and student Richard Frazier for a year. We talk a lot about air (I should say wind) at rehearsal, and we consistently do breathing exercises, despite our limited rehearsal schedule. I try and convey a need to create the image of a beautiful sound in your mind. You can't play nice if you do not first concieve nice.

But not everyone walked out of an Arnold Jacobs workshop a newly created world class musician. It certainly changed my playing. I do use his concepts as they have become my concepts. You have inspired me to go back thru the literature soon. I have not read the gospel in many years.

However, your advice is a bit simplistic (I did not say wrong). Equipment is a factor (one that can be overcome, but I'll go back to my 6 hour a month amatuer musician excuse). You advice taken to the extreme has us playing flight of the bumblebee on garden hoses for the mini corps title. I think you are sort of saying "If you guys were better musicians, this would not be a factor". I think you might have something there.

I kid. I'm a kidder.

I'm wondering if there are lines out there that had marked changes/improvements in the quality of the ensemble when they switched from G to Bb. I don't think the biggest factors are the horns themselves, but the ability of the players to competently operate the horns under the circumstances we find ourselves in here and now. We have much less face time on the horns, and generally smaller ensembles playing in smaller venues. Back in our jr. corps days we likely were not switching back and forth as much either.

Given my reality, I'd like to know if switching to Bb is going to get me a better hornline.

Edited August 9, 2007 by tick ticky tick