Time for Rifles to Go?

[danielray]

Wow. Why am I surprised that danielray just tried to steer the topic into smoke-free drum corps? What next, dude? All corps vehicles must run on CNG? (Which wouldn't be bad if the corps didn't have to pay for the new vehicles, but I doubt they'd be freebies.) All corps must change their names to that of an endangered animal species to promote their plight? I don't buy the sponsorship argument any more than the first failed argument about gun deaths. Perhaps the next argument will be that certain corps are hiding WMDs? It's a PC thing, pure and simple. And just as silly.

It is interesting that people assume that because I say something has the potential to generate cash, that I am pushing for that idea because I have some politically correct views. Again, I am not even close to being politically correct. I'm just pointing out where the cash is and a few ideas on what it takes to get it.

To point out exactly how far you are off the mark, my company's largest client is a big tobacco company. We have a whole group inside our firm that deals exclusively with age-restricted product marketing.

Anyway, because of the asinine tobacco settlement (see also: government sponsored extortion), there is nearly as much money out there to promote efforts to convince youth not to smoke as there is to convince adults to keep smoking.

Drum corps fits the model of exactly what it is that these companies want to put their money behind... something that seems squeaky-clean, Wonderbread, All-American. Drum corps is also a cheap buy, since they can get a targeted message out nationwide, by supplementing something that already exists (rather than creating something from scratch).

If they were able to promote to bando kids that 'You Can't Win DCI if You Smoke' (by the way, it's marketing... it doesn't have to be true), and they can show the government oversight folks that they were spending the money on something positive.

The kids in the corps would have to stop smoking and it would definitely need to be strictly enforced. You couldn't ######## that part, as there would likely be random evaluations by the oversight folks. In this case, I think the positives outweigh the negatives... and this would probably be the first place I'd suggest drum corps start looking for major sponsorship dollars.

Edited August 29, 2007 by danielray

[Musical_Spinner]

I gagged when I read this topic and has to be the most ridiculous thing to ever hit DCP.

One, there is actual (yet varying) technique to rifle that judges are trained to see, hence some actual structure to what they judging. The guard sheets would have to be completely re-written and judges re-trained to recognize varying skills with other standardized equipment (of which there would be none until every corps would use it in place of a rifle).

Rifles are the only thing readable on the field anyways except for flags and tacky props (of which there have been many over the years). The thrill of guard is being able to toss a high toss with great rotation with your fellow guard members and all nail it. And it nailing tosses as a group is amazing and with a giant rifle it is orgasmic (almost).

And besides from the stands it is extremely hard to see that great toss and rotation with sabre unless it is taped completely white or you are trained to recognize it. And you can't see the intricacies of the sabre choreography either. I am surprised this topic was created without a sabre in mind (the non-guard audience hardly appreciates sabre anyways, which IS the hardest piece of equipment to spin). I would still keep the sabre regardless because of tradition and the difficulty of it, I was just saying.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Musical_Spinner

[danielray]

I gagged when I read this topic and has to be the most ridiculous thing to ever hit DCP.

One, there is actual (yet varying) technique to rifle that judges are trained to see, hence some actual structure to what they judging. The guard sheets would have to be completely re-written and judges re-trained to recognize varying skills with other standardized equipment (of which there would be none until every corps would use it in place of a rifle).

Why does there need to be standard equipment? You can apply similar technique to something that isn't a gun that would make a bit more sense programaticaly.

The sheets wouldn't have to change even a little bit. You are not evaluating the actual technique, but how that technique is executed.

I actually think there is a strong argument, technique-wise, for guards to use their own sort of standard pieces of equipment that they, themselves, invent.

To explain...

If the equipment is familiar, then it is VERY difficult to break habits or technique that the performer learned in previous groups. If you hand them a new piece of equipment, it is easier to break these habits and more quickly create a uniform technique as everyone is suddenly at the same level of familiarity and don't unconsciously revert to their old habits.

This is something of a 'hard reset'... and essential rewires neural paths... and takes much less time than breaking well-ingrained bad habits of technique.

This is actually the approach Cadets use in using the right foot as the leading foot. It requires that all performers have a sort of 'hard reset' on their previous techniques they learned elsewhere and makes the process a bit more conscious until new habits are developed.

Rifles are the only thing readable on the field anyways except for flags and tacky props (of which there have been many over the years). The thrill of guard is being able to toss a high toss with great rotation with your fellow guard members and all nail it. And it nailing tosses as a group is amazing and with a giant rifle it is orgasmic (almost).

There are certainly more readable and more effective possibilities yet to be invented.

And besides from the stands it is extremely hard to see that great toss and rotation with sabre unless it is taped completely white or you are trained to recognize it. And you can't see the intricacies of the sabre choreography either. I am surprised this topic was created without a sabre in mind (the non-guard audience hardly appreciates sabre anyways, which IS the hardest piece of equipment to spin). I would still keep the sabre regardless because of tradition and the difficulty of it, I was just saying.

Sabers don't have that long of a tradition of being spun in many corps. The corps that I marched with introduced sabres back with I was marching (and re-introduced rifles after going several years without).

Anyway, given the energy expended vs. energy returned... sabres don't make too much sense on the field. Save them for winter where they can really be cool (San Jose Raiders - Bolero comes to mind)

[ItsOnTheField]

Danielray, this is so easy. Do what you want with your own corps...make the cash you seem to think you can....and let the rest of us do our thing.

If it works for you, then maybe others will follow suit. Set a standard and move forward with what you think is going to work instead of spending days on what seems to be a dead topic on DCP.

There is nothing worng with anyones opinion. It's rare that this board comes to any sort of overall agreement.

I seem to think that the coments towards the use of rifles and 'geeky uniforms' just shows a lack of knowledge by those who make them and need to be educated. I don't see major sponsors of the Figure Skating events being to worried about the use of similar type constumes.

[danielray]

Danielray, this is so easy. Do what you want with your own corps...make the cash you seem to think you can....and let the rest of us do our thing.

If it works for you, then maybe others will follow suit. Set a standard and move forward with what you think is going to work instead of spending days on what seems to be a dead topic on DCP.

Careful what you wish for...

I seem to think that the coments towards the use of rifles and 'geeky uniforms' just shows a lack of knowledge by those who make them and need to be educated. I don't see major sponsors of the Figure Skating events being to worried about the use of similar type constumes.

Current uniforms are super geeky. It isn't a matter of simply a perception of people that 'need to be educated', it is they look like some mutant cross between Star Trek, The Super Friends and a pirate costume.

You still have tin soldiers like The Cadets, but the irony there is that they are accused of being the most out there, changing for the sake of change, yet they haven't even changed their uniforms in the entire time my grandmother has been alive. How is that for radical?

Traditional military-style uniforms made sense back when corps performed with a bit more military tradition. Now, they are an obstacle and just look kind of awkward or forced with the programs being presented. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there other than in the context of history... which is completely lost on the 'first time viewer', which is part of a barrier in converting them to becoming a 'thousandth time viewer'.

[audiodb]

You still have tin soldiers like The Cadets, but the irony there is that they are accused of being the most out there, changing for the sake of change, yet they haven't even changed their uniforms in the entire time my grandmother has been alive. How is that for radical?

That's right - you didn't see any shows in 2006. Anyone have a link to a pic of their uniform backs from last year?

[stifled4mallettechnique]

What makes you think that your vision of what makes sense is so important that you would move to BAN equipment that you don't like? What is it that makes you feel so strongly about this that you mask your motivations in social responsibilty, then change your story to the corporate sponsorship angle when the first excuse meets such strong resistance?

By all means, start your own corps! You've got your own company, you know plenty of potential sponsors, right? Show us all your vision! Chances are, many of us will like it (so long as when you get to the top 12 you don't join forces with you-know-who and force your vision on everyone). But we'll still like other visions as well, and won't call for their demise.

[77kingsmensnare]

Careful what you wish for...

Current uniforms are super geeky. It isn't a matter of simply a perception of people that 'need to be educated', it is they look like some mutant cross between Star Trek, The Super Friends and a pirate costume.

You still have tin soldiers like The Cadets, but the irony there is that they are accused of being the most out there, changing for the sake of change, yet they haven't even changed their uniforms in the entire time my grandmother has been alive. How is that for radical?

Traditional military-style uniforms made sense back when corps performed with a bit more military tradition. Now, they are an obstacle and just look kind of awkward or forced with the programs being presented. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there other than in the context of history... which is completely lost on the 'first time viewer', which is part of a barrier in converting them to becoming a 'thousandth time viewer'.

It's not Drum and Bugle Corps anymore, it's Marching Band without woodwinds!

[SF2K4]

That's right - you didn't see any shows in 2006. Anyone have a link to a pic of their uniform backs from last year?

While that's true... eh, I still have to give him the points. There's no denying that the Cadets, even with their ALTERATIONS ('cause that's really all they were) have had the longest standing uniform in DCI.

[Cathie Wiener]

I actually think there is a strong argument, technique-wise, for guards to use their own sort of standard pieces of equipment that they, themselves, invent.

Okay, I'll bite.

Step 1 - Design

So we as an entire corps nation happily work together with all corps guards to create a new spinnable almost-rifle-like-but-not-quite-as-"offensive" piece of equipment. Go us. I don't know how we were all able to agree and actually choose an acceptable design, but corps emphasize and teach teamwork and we figured it out.

Step 2 - Manufacturing

We easily persuade the multiple rifle manufacturers to have a different pattern established and manufactured even though the thousands of colleges, high schools, junior high and WGI groups are still using the standard rifle design. Don't worry we'll make it worth their while. In the first year we may purchase 720 non-rifles or so (~60 corps (DCI and DCA) x 12 non-rifles) to make it worth your time and effort, that is whichever of the manufacturers choose to actually do this. If we are blessed and three manufacturers go with it, great now they should each get the purchase of about 240 non-rifles. Could you please pump those out as soon as possible, by the way, so ALL the corps can purchase them ASAP? Oooh, the money is rolling in. So woo hoo, we now have manufacturers.

Step 3 - Spinning the d*mn things.

You said...

This is something of a 'hard reset'... and essential rewires neural paths... and takes much less time than breaking well-ingrained bad habits of technique.

This is actually the approach Cadets use in using the right foot as the leading foot. It requires that all performers have a sort of 'hard reset' on their previous techniques they learned elsewhere and makes the process a bit more conscious until new habits are developed.

Learning to spin a new piece of equipment is NOT the same as learning to step off with a different foot. Not even a close equivalent. I agree with the "hard reset" that you mention. I get that. Small problem. We "hard reset" the skills of these kids/young adults oh... except they still have winterguard and band spinning their rifles all season long so now, they're completely messed up with muscle memory. Granted a good guard member who is familiar with rifles should be able to pick up anything and spin it; broom stick, curtain rod, BAC's "crutch", etc. except that not every corps starts with a line of members that are top spinners. For some people their ability on the high school rifle is decent and their entire reportoire consists of simple basics and their high school's field routine from that year. And now these kids cold start on a new piece of equipment when they at least had the basics of the rifle. Now we've just put the guards that were at an average level to start with even further behind. But okay, we're in corps, we're hardcore, we figure it out. Go us.

Step 4 - Train the judges.

The sheets wouldn't have to change even a little bit. You are not evaluating the actual technique, but how that technique is executed.

Awesome. Free pass for the weapons. Battery... we know your technique, so we know what to judge. Ha ha on you. Horns... we know what your technique is so we're going to judge it. Ha ha on you. Pit... we know your technique and we're going to judge you on it. Ha ha on you. Flags... we know your technique and you're getting judged on it. Ha ha on you. Non-rifles... we know your.... um. Never mind. Just do your best. It doesn't matter anyway. Your technique isn't being judged (shh... we don't know it), but it doesn't matter. We're just going to judge if it looks like it's being executed properly. (Again... shhh don't tell.) Sorry, I don't buy it.

How about we actually train the judges on the basic technique of our pretty new non-rifle and show them what to expect while judging them? If we actually got this far, there are no worries from me. I give the judges credit and know that they will be just as befuddled judging the new equipment as those of us spinning them. On a whole, the judges are smart people. They'll figure it out.

Step 5 ish - Training retention.

Cool, we made it through our first season of the non-rifle and everything was great. A little question on some of the judging, but we'll survive. Now kids/young adults, make sure you practice during the Fall so when camps roll around, we're awesome!!! What? You don't have any of these at home to practice with? What? Your high school/college doesn't use these? What? You have no other access to these types of equipment? Okay. Just make sure you buy one with your own money and practice it during the Fall and, hopefully, it won't mess up your rifle technique for your other performance group.

One obvious note, I know that if something is created similar enough to a rifle, but doesn't "look" like a rifle, the technique issue of this goes away. However, BK did it in 1993 I think and they still pretty much looked like rifles. In my very limited creative mind I don't see how you're going to keep the same proportion to keep the spinning technique as close to it currently is as possible and not somehow still have the shape of the rifle. I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't know how.

Last note: Though I am posting this to be facetious, I'm not a complete and total naysayer. If somehow this actually was to come to fruition, I wouldn't be throwing a fit for the loss of rifles if there were an equivalent that was just as entertaining to watch and just as hardcore to spin. As I've said before in my posts, I DO NOT believe rifles need to be changed aesthetically to soothe the consciences of these "hypothetical" they'd-sponsor-if-only corporations. But I've already stated my opinion on that one. However, I'm cool with the idea that the rifle just doesn't fit some themes. I see how an outsider to the activity would say that. But I'm going to contradict myself here and say, "But it's drum corps. Rifles are inherent to the drum corps activity. No theme cohesion needed."

There are so many activities out there that just "don't make sense." Many people have brought this up before earlier in this thread so I won't.

That is all.

Carry on.

:)

Edit: for grammatical errors.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Cathie Wiener