They're Not Bugles/So Bring On the Woodwinds

[RichCranford82]

Drum corps has gotten where it is by moving...sometimes inching....itself towards the band world in equipment...I see no reason to stop.

This statement got me thinking - where exactly has Drum Corps (DCI in particular) gotten by moving closer to the band world? How big could Drum Corps have been if this wasn't the case and in the process not alienated countless Drum Corps fans? When I first got involved with Drum Corps back in 1980 it seems to me that it was the marching bands who were striving to be more like Drum Corps, maybe not so much in regards to equipment but certainly in creativity and show design done WITHIN the guidelines of brass and percussion as an acoustic activity. Well, now that that's gone (for good I'm afraid), why not open it up for "anything goes"? Seriously, I have to think that the majority of any loyal fan base created from the time of Corps being acoustic are long gone (myself included) so why not cater to the marching band crowd? Actually the whole thing is pretty sad in my opinion, merging two unique activities into one. You really have to wonder just how many fans would have stuck with Drum Corps thru the years if this "merger" wasn't happening (to be honest I think it's already happened). Let me put it another way - I can honestly say that hardly anyone I knew from when I started in Corps, either as a fellow marcher or as a spectator, was a fan of both marching bands and Drum Corps. At least you had a choice as to which one floated your boat, not so much anymore. And please stop using the tired argument that it's just a bunch of dinosaurs that can't accept change and who think ANY change is a bad thing. Everyone has thier "line in the sand" so to speak when it comes to just how many and what type of changes are made, mine just happened to be when the acoustic aspect was taken away and a truly unique idiom ceased to exist. And yes, I do realize that the activity exists primarily for the sake of the marching members, but to discount the value of fans in an audience driven "sport" (DCI's wording, not mine) is ludicrous and self-defeating at best. Thank God for CD's!!!

[3rd_Star_Brigade]

Ok,

I'm a clarinet major at WCU School of Music. I performed in drum corps on mellophone. Personally, I would never trade in my horn for my clarinet, and personally, I feel that clarinet has no place on the field. Woodwinds may work as a timbral effect in the pit, maybe, but they are highly tempermental when it comes to weather. Everything on the instrument gets out of tune, swells, or the reed changes texture. The same is true for string instruments, and even brass go through some changes.

What drum corps embodies to me is the utter perfection of the marching ensemble. The sound of a solid bell-front brass choir behind ornamental and field percussion adds color and excitement to the sounds that are produced. Add to the fact that brass instruments are now exclusive to their own line of heavy-duty field brass (same with percussion) and the economic and realistic proportions of instrumentation become aparant, it would really be impossible to duplicate that for woodwinds. And, although the horns are able to withstand the rigors of the drum corps activity, something is missing in their sound. I would never compare a marching horn to a professional instrument. So, even if woodwinds came out with a brand that withstood every weather condition and the players used plastic reeds, you would end up with a sound so uncharacteristic, what would be the point??

The directionality of the woodwinds is just as big a problem as non bell-front brass. Unless you are Blast!, using concert tubas, euphonium horns, etc. without a shell in a concert hall, I doubt that that would work.

The point of innovation is to improve upon what you have. Our instruments are not perfect, even though I believe the configuration is. Fix that. Or, rather, focus on arranging music that isn't:

Buildup-Fast Opener-Ballad-Percussion Featurette/Dancing with Horns-Fast Conclusion

Please, Please, PLEASE!!! For the love of GOD! Pick a different ####### format!!!!

Edited November 30, 2007 by 3rd_Star_Brigade

[PercussiveEric]

I'm really opposed to WW for one reason.

There is still WAY too much that hasn't been done in an all brass ensemble.

[drumcat]

This statement got me thinking - where exactly has Drum Corps (DCI in particular) gotten by moving closer to the band world? How big could Drum Corps have been if this wasn't the case and in the process not alienated countless Drum Corps fans? When I first got involved with Drum Corps back in 1980 it seems to me that it was the marching bands who were striving to be more like Drum Corps, maybe not so much in regards to equipment but certainly in creativity and show design done WITHIN the guidelines of brass and percussion as an acoustic activity. Well, now that that's gone (for good I'm afraid), why not open it up for "anything goes"? Seriously, I have to think that the majority of any loyal fan base created from the time of Corps being acoustic are long gone (myself included) so why not cater to the marching band crowd? Actually the whole thing is pretty sad in my opinion, merging two unique activities into one. You really have to wonder just how many fans would have stuck with Drum Corps thru the years if this "merger" wasn't happening (to be honest I think it's already happened). Let me put it another way - I can honestly say that hardly anyone I knew from when I started in Corps, either as a fellow marcher or as a spectator, was a fan of both marching bands and Drum Corps. At least you had a choice as to which one floated your boat, not so much anymore. And please stop using the tired argument that it's just a bunch of dinosaurs that can't accept change and who think ANY change is a bad thing. Everyone has thier "line in the sand" so to speak when it comes to just how many and what type of changes are made, mine just happened to be when the acoustic aspect was taken away and a truly unique idiom ceased to exist. And yes, I do realize that the activity exists primarily for the sake of the marching members, but to discount the value of fans in an audience driven "sport" (DCI's wording, not mine) is ludicrous and self-defeating at best. Thank God for CD's!!!

I happen to believe that the instrumentation isn't moving towards band, but rather it's just improving -- the highest quality marching instruments is what drum corps is after. If it was moving towards band, it would have added trombones and sousaphones by now.

[Discombobulato]

Once in a while we see in the pro-woodwind discussions that "Drum and Bugle Corps" do not use bugles so it doesn't matter what instruments are used. The argument here is the horns being used have not been bugles since the first valve was added so "Anything Goes" <$1 to Yankee Rebels drum cadence> should be the way to go in corps.

IMO, this is Apples and Oranges reasoning because of the following:

Apples: The change from valveless bugles to todays 3 upright valves can be tracked as modifications to the horns being used. First change was not the initial valve but actually a "crook" aka pigtail that was placed between the mouthpiece and horn. This allowed the bugle to play the "first valve" notes only. Then the valve was added to allow the horn to play both open and first valve notes. (Actually there was an in between step as the very first valved horns had a valve lock so the horn still only played open or first, not both during a show.) Follow along to tuning slides being steel wooled down so they could be used as a second valve, real piston/slide set up, piston/rotor, 2 valves and fianlly 3 valves.

Oranges: Allowing woodwinds would be making an addition, as opposed to modifying to the instruments currently in use. If woodwinds should be allowed so MB woodwind players can join corps, then why not add keyboards to the mix. After all piano/organ players can't even join most MB so they "need" this more than WW players.

OK, the floor is opened for discussion.....

Well, here comes a huge complexity issue. First off, you wouldn't have just 5 different types of instruments. You'd have, well I don't know, but a lot more. This causes the need for many different section instructors and having different playing postures. Sure, maybe they'd make a marching flute or sax or something, but woodwinds generally reduce the uniform look in my opinion. And I honestly don't know if there are any, but since I've never seen one it must not be too usual to see a silver clarinet.

Difference in sound is a big thing. If you wanted a balanced sound, you'd either have to take out 2/3 of the brass section, or add 60-70 woodwinds to the corps. It might not sound so bad, but you'd either have to live with much less sound by taking out much of the brass, or have to deal with 2 more buses, more food, more room to sleep, more instructors, more bathrooms and ect. It's not economically feasible (at least what I think) to add that many more people for a balanced sound. And I'm not so sure people would like less volume of sound from a corps.

Woodwinds don't like rain right? Well, I don't see this as big of a problem, but if a show ever gets rained on, or even a rehearsal woodwinds would have to sit out. It really isn't that big of a deal, they could always rehearse without their instruments I suppose.

Just because It totally sounds like I'm against woodwinds, it doesn't mean I am. I'm just saying there's a huge amount of issues which I think could prevent it from happening. But what could be very possible, is having a small group have like a quintet, or something larger or smaller on the field for a segment of the show. That could be very interesting and new I think.

Just my shpiel on the whole issue.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Discombobulato

[drumcat]

Man Mike, I don't know how you do it. You have got to be the best at debating the "pro-any" thing side and you never lash out. I don't think I'll ever agree with you regarding vocals or ww's but you have my undying respect. I've got to meet you one of these days.

It's the meds, isn't it?

It wouldn't be nearly as civil without "Minority Mike".

[audiodb]

This statement got me thinking - where exactly has Drum Corps (DCI in particular) gotten by moving closer to the band world? How big could Drum Corps have been if this wasn't the case and in the process not alienated countless Drum Corps fans?

Well, the activity was bigger in both participation and audience in the pre-DCI era. I have been going through publications from the 1950s recently, and I'm astonished at the attendance figures that various contests drew back then.

When I first got involved with Drum Corps back in 1980 it seems to me that it was the marching bands who were striving to be more like Drum Corps, maybe not so much in regards to equipment but certainly in creativity and show design done WITHIN the guidelines of brass and percussion as an acoustic activity.

Oh, don't point that out - you'll spoil Mike's spin on things.

Excellent observation. Marching band has morphed as much toward drum corps as vice-versa. And, of course, while Mike wants us to think that the course of change has this ultimate destination of drum corps becoming band, that has never been the case. Not one of the changes drum corps has made was ever undertaken with the rationale of turning drum corps into band.

Truth is, if it weren't for scholastic music and it's nine-figure annual tax subsidation, competitive marching band would be nearly extinct. In the open market of summer events, fans and marchers have shown their preference for drum corps in overwhelming numbers for 60 years. Several on this board don't even realize that (since summer marching band is completely gone from many regions), but I think most of the activity's leaders have kept sight of this fact.

Edited November 30, 2007 by audiodb

[MikeD]

I happen to believe that the instrumentation isn't moving towards band, but rather it's just improving -- the highest quality marching instruments is what drum corps is after. If it was moving towards band, it would have added trombones and sousaphones by now.

As I said, "inching" along. Eventually they will be permitted. "Improving" happens to be moving the instruments towards the band world. I see no reason to stop.

[MikeD]

This statement got me thinking - where exactly has Drum Corps (DCI in particular) gotten by moving closer to the band world? How big could Drum Corps have been if this wasn't the case and in the process not alienated countless Drum Corps fans? When I first got involved with Drum Corps back in 1980 it seems to me that it was the marching bands who were striving to be more like Drum Corps, maybe not so much in regards to equipment but certainly in creativity and show design done WITHIN the guidelines of brass and percussion as an acoustic activity. Well, now that that's gone (for good I'm afraid), why not open it up for "anything goes"? Seriously, I have to think that the majority of any loyal fan base created from the time of Corps being acoustic are long gone (myself included) so why not cater to the marching band crowd? Actually the whole thing is pretty sad in my opinion, merging two unique activities into one. You really have to wonder just how many fans would have stuck with Drum Corps thru the years if this "merger" wasn't happening (to be honest I think it's already happened). Let me put it another way - I can honestly say that hardly anyone I knew from when I started in Corps, either as a fellow marcher or as a spectator, was a fan of both marching bands and Drum Corps. At least you had a choice as to which one floated your boat, not so much anymore. And please stop using the tired argument that it's just a bunch of dinosaurs that can't accept change and who think ANY change is a bad thing. Everyone has thier "line in the sand" so to speak when it comes to just how many and what type of changes are made, mine just happened to be when the acoustic aspect was taken away and a truly unique idiom ceased to exist. And yes, I do realize that the activity exists primarily for the sake of the marching members, but to discount the value of fans in an audience driven "sport" (DCI's wording, not mine) is ludicrous and self-defeating at best. Thank God for CD's!!!

Bands moved towards drum corps in show concepts and competition. Corps moved towards bands with instrumentation.

Small local corps died out by the hundreds and fewer and fewer rose up to take their place...starting pre-DCI, really. Bands became the largest portion of the "marching music" pyramid when the smaller corps failed. Without them there would be basically NO junior drum corps activity by now, IMO. DCI is wise to concentrate on forging close ties to the band world where ever it can.

DCI and the corps do not discount the value of the fans. They are creating highly exciting shows performed at high levels of excellence. What more would any fan want?

[MikeD]

Oh, don't point that out - you'll spoil Mike's spin on things.

Excellent observation. Marching band has morphed as much toward drum corps as vice-versa. And, of course, while Mike wants us to think that the course of change has this ultimate destination of drum corps becoming band, that has never been the case. Not one of the changes drum corps has made was ever undertaken with the rationale of turning drum corps into band.

Spoil what? I have said many times that in show design concepts and the competitive environmet bands have moved towards corps, while at the hardware end corps have moved towards band.

Yes, it IS the case that corps will become full-featured bands at some point, as they have indeed been moving in that direction for 50+ years. You seem to think it is some sort of coincidence that instrument improvements and additions have emulated band instruments. I do not. Corps staffs and admins have been drawn more and more from the scholastic band arena, so it makes sense that drum corps will continue to move along that path, however slowly.