They're Not Bugles/So Bring On the Woodwinds

[Dale Bari]

It's not 1867 anymore. Who cares about "military signalling devices" in 2007?

Well, using that idea, who cared about "military signalling devices" in 1947? 1967? 1987? Yet, the corps played something those years that more resembled the original "military signalling device" than what's played today. I fail to see your point. (Surprise!)

Yes, fife and drum groups exist as roughly equivalent to some of the alumni drum corps...purposely to recreate and preserve the sounds of the past. How is that remotely relevant to competitive drum corps?

You use the whole "alumni corps = museum" concept a lot, especially when you use the modifier "competitive" to further differentiate current touring corps from the alumni movement. The competitive part means a lot less to the average fan in the stands at shows than it does to the DCP crowd and FMM's standing next to them. (In fact, I couldn't care less about getting scores at the show any more. Since retreat has been stripped of its pomp and tradition, and because I can find out the scores online by the time I get home, I never stay past the end of the last corps.)

Entertainment is more important than the competition aspect for fans. Casual fans do get more interested in the competition during Finals week, especially by Saturday night. People all want to know who came out on top, but for the rest of the time, being entertained is more important than the horse-race aspect to the bulk of the fans who turn out. So, why should alumni corps be looked at as something that far apart? Competition is what drives the touring corps to practice as much as they do. Those in alumni corps can't make that kind of sacrifice any more. Yet, touring corps and alumni corps alike all wish to entertain. Is pure entertainment an insufficient reason for existing outside of the "museum"?

So, the museum viewing case contains: no valve, slide, valve-slide, valve-rotor, 2-valve, and 3-valve bugles (all in G). It also contains the AL/VFW/CYO circuits, local & regional corps circuits, local (non-touring) corps, symmetrical drill, starting/end lines, color-pre's, American flag sections, marching marimbas, and full-corps retreat.

Will we place entertainment in there now as well, to begin collecting dust? And will the last all-brass wind line follow along soon?

Edited November 27, 2007 by Dale Bari

[Old School Contra Guy]

this makes as much sense as addings ww's !

[elphaba01]

The addition of woodwinds to drum corps would mark the end of DCI.

"Woodwinds":

The addition of "Woodwinds" to drum corps would mark the END OF DRUM CORPS.

Elphaba

WWW

[Piper]

DCI seems to keep forgetting that it's not the only wheel in town. Corps who disagree with woodwinds could easily go DCA with no problem, and I'll bet they'd be welcomed with arms extended.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Piper

[LaneS]

DCI + WW = BOA

[MikeD]

Well, using that idea, who cared about "military signalling devices" in 1947? 1967? 1987? Yet, the corps played something those years that more resembled the original "military signalling device" than what's played today. I fail to see your point. (Surprise!)

Not sure I agree on that. A two-valve horn from 1987 has little in common with a valveless bugle signallig device used in 1867...heck, the valve/rotor Olds Ultratone I used in 1972 would not have been useful as a "signalling device". It's really closer to an indoor baritone than an 1867 straight bugle.

The point is that when it comes to equipment and changes/additions made over time the idea that because something was used 150 years ago is not at all germaine to what is or should be used today.

You use the whole "alumni corps = museum" concept a lot, especially when you use the modifier "competitive" to further differentiate current touring corps from the alumni movement.

First off...note that I said "some" of the alumni corps.

The competitive part means a lot less to the average fan in the stands at shows than it does to the DCP crowd and FMM's standing next to them. (In fact, I couldn't care less about getting scores at the show any more. Since retreat has been stripped of its pomp and tradition, and because I can find out the scores online by the time I get home, I never stay past the end of the last corps.)

Neither do I. Scores don'ty make any difference to me in my enjoyment of a show. Surpsie...we agree!

Entertainment is more important than the competition aspect for fans. Casual fans do get more interested in the competition during Finals week, especially by Saturday night. People all want to know who came out on top, but for the rest of the time, being entertained is more important than the horse-race aspect to the bulk of the fans who turn out. So, why should alumni corps be looked at as something that far apart? Competition is what drives the touring corps to practice as much as they do. Those in alumni corps can't make that kind of sacrifice any more. Yet, touring corps and alumni corps alike all wish to entertain. Is pure entertainment an insufficient reason for existing outside of the "museum"?

Who EVER said that? All corps strive to entertain, be they competitive or non competitive. The difference is in the approach. Competitive corps today, as they did in my day, are looking to perfect what they do to the nth degree. Alumni corps don't have that as a goal. Competitive corps have the additional aspect of being competitive and creating new and modern shows, as we did in our day as well. Alumni corps are the opposite. They are looking to remind people of what "was". Both are equally valid goals and approaches to drum corps. Both are entertaining. The competitive corps of today are the direct line from the competitive corps of the past. The alumni movement is a relatively new addition, and a welcome one at that, to retain some of the connections to the past, while entertaining the audiences of today.

So, the museum viewing case contains: no valve, slide, valve-slide, valve-rotor, 2-valve, and 3-valve bugles (all in G). It also contains the AL/VFW/CYO circuits, local & regional corps circuits, local (non-touring) corps, symmetrical drill, starting/end lines, color-pre's, American flag sections, marching marimbas, and full-corps retreat.

OK.

Will we place entertainment in there now as well, to begin collecting dust? And will the last all-brass wind line follow along soon?

Entertainment is where you find it. A modern DCI corps from 2007 is entertaining, just as a modern corps of 1972 was entertaining in 1972. What is nice today is that you may also have the ability to see a corps recreate the 1972 entertainment, while in 1972 you did not have the ability to actually see anything similar from decades prior to 1972. IMO we should revel in the ability to experience both today.

[MikeD]

"Woodwinds":

The addition of "Woodwinds" to drum corps would mark the END OF DRUM CORPS.

Elphaba

WWW

No it wouldn't.

[MikeD]

DCI seems to keep forgetting that it's not the only wheel in town. Corps who disagree with woodwinds could easily go DCA with no problem, and I'll bet they'd be welcomed with arms extended.

Um...DCI is not looking to add WW, so how is the above remotely applicable? All of this is just discussion here on DCP about the idea.

[Dale Bari]

Not sure I agree on that. A two-valve horn from 1987 has little in common with a valveless bugle signallig device used in 1867...heck, the valve/rotor Olds Ultratone I used in 1972 would not have been useful as a "signalling device". It's really closer to an indoor baritone than an 1867 straight bugle.

The point is that when it comes to equipment and changes/additions made over time the idea that because something was used 150 years ago is not at all germaine to what is or should be used today.

Well, that's what I mean - if it didn't matter in 1947, it shouldn't matter today. In 1947, no one questioned why they were playing straight bugles - bugles hadn't been used as a battlefield signalling device for decades THEN. If they had wanted to be bands, why didn't they pick up band instruments then? The military had bands then. Why not emulate them? No, there was no question in the corps' organizers' minds: bugles.

Yet, many corps people much more recently questioned why even be in G. At least a 2-valve Olds Ultratone 1987 model (were they still made in 1987?) was still in the same key as an 1867 model cavalry bugle and, other than in superficial appearance, had less in common with a band instrument. In 2007, the drum corps brass instrument is indistinguishable from a band instrument and has nothing in common with the old cavalry horn.

First off...note that I said "some" of the alumni corps.

Well, OK, but I don't see how that difference matters to my question. Whether some or all fit your description, I wanted to know how that made them museum pieces. So, for further clarification, what alumni corps DON'T fit the museum analogy?

Who EVER said that? All corps strive to entertain, be they competitive or non competitive. The difference is in the approach. Competitive corps today, as they did in my day, are looking to perfect what they do to the nth degree. Alumni corps don't have that as a goal. Competitive corps have the additional aspect of being competitive and creating new and modern shows, as we did in our day as well. Alumni corps are the opposite. They are looking to remind people of what "was". Both are equally valid goals and approaches to drum corps. Both are entertaining. The competitive corps of today are the direct line from the competitive corps of the past. The alumni movement is a relatively new addition, and a welcome one at that, to retain some of the connections to the past, while entertaining the audiences of today.

OK, so why the "wall" of qualifiers in your previous post?

I sincerely doubt that Alumni corps have a GOAL of not being perfect to the nth degree. They have a goal of putting out a corps in the context of being part-timers. With that limitation in mind, the "not being perfect to the nth degree" is a result, not the cause. Also, I don't think that Alumni corps organizers have the GOAL of being the museum of drum corps' past. They simply want to "do" drum corps their way. Much like Blue Devils and Cavaliers, and the rest of DCI want to do it their ways. So, I look at alumni corps as closer to competitive drum corps than you do. I simply question your way of partitioning them off from the rest of corps, esp DCI. Your equations are "competitive = entertainment + perfection" but "alumni = entertainment only", and "alumni = museum". So, "entertainment only = museum".

What is nice today is that you may also have the ability to see a corps recreate the 1972 entertainment, while in 1972 you did not have the ability to actually see anything similar from decades prior to 1972. IMO we should revel in the ability to experience both today.

I agree: it is nice to see those different corps all out there. However, I propose that no such thing existed in 1972 because no one sensed the need for it. IOW, what existed in 1972 (+/-) was still so similar to what existed in older times, no one thought there was any lost/disappearing heritage to preserve (in your words).

Yet, now (again, in your mind) there are many people who feel the need to preserve something before it is lost completely. And apparently, more are doing so all the time. I think that says a lot about the current mindset of those folks (versus ones like yours, Mike) out there in drumcorpsland.

[drumcat]

So FTR, no one seems interested in adding woodwinds who has a vote, correct? Outside of Hopkins' annual photocopied saxophone request, that's it, right?