Northmont ... 1997

[byline]

I guess this is why I'm a sucker for just about every "pretty" show that's been in finals.

LOL, me too!

OK, just to wade carefully into this debate (hopefully with my standard can of gasoline tightly capped): I'm certainly an advocate of creativity, learning, growth, pushing the envelope, etc. But I think the issue we're talking about here is high school students, and what they're asked to express. It's much like a method actor taking on a role; young people are going to absorb what they're asked to perform. So I think that's a very different scenario than asking someone who is more mentally and emotionally mature to take on that role. (And heck, even for some of those folks, ideas like these would be hard to handle. After all, one of the reasons Jorja Fox quit "CSI" was because she was getting tired of the relentless violence and dark themes explored on that show.)

Yes, I know that kids in high school are dealing with a lot of garbage and pressure these days. So, for that reason, why would you want to push that experience even further into negative terrain with this kind of dark, destructive emotional mindset . . . and do so not just in a performing environment, but a competitive one ... where the stakes are even higher?

Edit: OK, found the video. I was actually fine with the show till they got into the whole "human sacrifice" thing and all the stuff after that. That's a level of violence that, IMO, is way too extreme for that age group. It's not just that somebody was portrayed as dying; that's a theme that I think young people can explore, though it needs to be done carefully. But the difference here is that members of the guard were made to inflict that death on her. Prior to that, I could see them exploring this theme of darkness to a certain extent and using that as a catharsis. But it went from being cathartic to just graphically violent, not question about it, and that's where I felt the show crossed a line ... especially with high school students.

Had this been done by an older guard, I might have been able to accept it. Still have a lot of trouble with the hanging thing, though.

Edited March 27, 2008 by byline

[Meaghatron]

Had this been done by an older guard, I might have been able to accept it. Still have a lot of trouble with the hanging thing, though.

I agree. The hanging thing, for me, was where the show really crossed the line. Even if an older guard had performed, I wouldn't have felt comfortable with the hanging scene.

What I did like about the show was the staging of the props with the performers on top using the equipment. I really liked the look of the flags from the floor to the top of the props. It looked neat. I don't know if any other guard has done something like that before... I've only been following WGI (and winterguard in general) since 2007.

[wtxcg]

I don't know if any other guard has done something like that before... I've only been following WGI (and winterguard in general) since 2007.

*pushes pencil, pads, yearbooks, BETAMAX & VHS cassettes and DVD's your way*

You have about 40 years of catching up to do...

[byline]

I agree. The hanging thing, for me, was where the show really crossed the line. Even if an older guard had performed, I wouldn't have felt comfortable with the hanging scene.

What I did like about the show was the staging of the props with the performers on top using the equipment. I really liked the look of the flags from the floor to the top of the props. It looked neat. I don't know if any other guard has done something like that before... I've only been following WGI (and winterguard in general) since 2007.

I agree. The costuming and equipment were superb, as were the props. Even watching it on video, I felt transformed into their world.

But the theatrical violence at the end took me out of it, and for me, that's when it becomes oddness for the sake of oddness. It was obviously intended as shock value ... and worked. But the whole issue of whether this was really appropriate for high school kids took me out of the moment, and I think that's a fundamental mistake. I realize that this is all very subjective, but whenever you take a performance from the realm where the audience is involved to a point where the audience is self-conscious about the performers, then it goes from being performance to this more odd category of "performance art" (still not sure what that means). But it just becomes a much more self-conscious process, and one that -- at least, IMO -- isn't in the same realm as performance.

OK, so that's a real head-scratcher. I may have to read that over a few times and edit myself, LOL!

[Guardguy89]

Hey all,

anyone remember Victoriaville Phoenix - they did a show based on stress (I think '93). And at the end of the show one girl hung herself (too much stress). They were forced to remove that from their show. I always wondered if Northmont got their idea from that show.

Also -as for Northmont's show: I always wondered why a girl who was already dead and in hell would then hang herself - doesn't make sense does it?

Later,

Mike

[Meaghatron]

Hey all,

anyone remember Victoriaville Phoenix - they did a show based on stress (I think '93). And at the end of the show one girl hung herself (too much stress). They were forced to remove that from their show. I always wondered if Northmont got their idea from that show.

Also -as for Northmont's show: I always wondered why a girl who was already dead and in hell would then hang herself - doesn't make sense does it?

Later,

Mike

I don't know if you have read Dante's Inferno, or not, but the hanging (in a way) does make sense with the book. I can't remember if there's specifically a part in the book when someone is hanged, but all of the people in hell are being tortured in various (and often disgusting) ways. Like I said, I can't remember if there's a part about hanging, but I guess you could stretch it to the idea that this person's punishment would be having to be hanged over and over again.

Dante's Inferno is a pretty good book actually.

Edit: Here's the closest thing I could find to "hanging" in Dante's Inferno... (From Wikipedia)

Seventh Circle

This circle houses the violent. Its entry is guarded by the Minotaur, and it is divided into three rings:

Middle ring: In this ring are the suicides, who are transformed into gnarled thorny bushes and trees. They are torn at by the Harpies. Unique among the dead, the suicides will not be bodily resurrected after the final judgment, having given their bodies away through suicide. Instead they will maintain their bushy form, with their own corpses hanging from the limbs. Dante breaks a twig off of one of the bushes and hears the tale of Pier delle Vigne, who committed suicide after falling out of favor with Emperor Frederick II. The other residents of this ring are the profligates, who destroyed their lives by destroying the means by which life is sustained (i.e. money and property). They are perpetually chased by ferocious dogs through the thorny undergrowth. (Canto XIII) The trees are a metaphor; in life the only way of the relief of suffering was through pain (i.e. suicide) and in Hell, the only form of relief of the suffering is through pain (breaking of the limbs to bleed).

Edited March 27, 2008 by i_play_percussion

[byline]

Also -as for Northmont's show: I always wondered why a girl who was already dead and in hell would then hang herself - doesn't make sense does it?

Owwww ... my head hurts.

Oh, wait, now I've read Meaghan's explanation, and I feel so much better!

Seriously, I have read "The Inferno" (it was required reading in one of my college lit classes). In fact, I still have it on my shelf and may have to give it another read. But I think this is one of those scenarios when they could have interpreted the characters' angst without that particular literal take on the source material.

Edited March 27, 2008 by byline

[pawn shoppe heart]

Yes, I know that kids in high school are dealing with a lot of garbage and pressure these days. So, for that reason, why would you want to push that experience even further into negative terrain with this kind of dark, destructive emotional mindset . . . and do so not just in a performing environment, but a competitive one ... where the stakes are even higher?

I really don't think it's that deep.

Again, if any performer felt that the show was crossing a line, they would have left.

Although they were high school students, they were world class performers. Being a world class performer not only requires the right skill, but a lot of maturity and a great understanding of what you are performing. I don't think any of them suffered any emotional trauma from the content of their show.

Diving into death and destruction is a sensitive subject to some, but this activity is an art form and it is pivital to explore all different types of subjects and push boundaries.

[byline]

I really don't think it's that deep.

Again, if any performer felt that the show was crossing a line, they would have left.

Really? There are all sorts of pressures to conform, and Lord knows, young people do plenty of things that are not in their best interests. But, because of pressure from their peers, an authority figure, or a combination of all the above, they may go right ahead and do it.

There's been a lot of study devoted to the development of adolescent brains and how skills like reasoning and judgment are not fully developed until the early to mid-20s. What we used to attribute to teenage hormones is now being considered under the realm of an adolescent brain that is still undergoing dramatic changes. I'll link several articles below, but one that I think is most pertinent to this discussion is an interview from a Frontline episode: Inside the Teenage Brain

Teenage Brain: A work in progress

Adolescent Brains are Works in Progress

This story focuses more on what an appropriate sentence should be for teens in the legal system, but it still makes some very valid points: Scientists say teen brain, still maturing, is key to understanding behavior

If you take this into account, I think it becomes quite clear why we, as adults, need to be able to make the distinction for what is appropriate "artistic expression" for a teenager.

Edited March 27, 2008 by byline

[Will]

YAY SUE!!! I totally agree. If it bothers me, it will bother my kids (at least that's the approach I take).