Quick Thoughts

[dugg]

i'm all for a variety of different apperatus being considered,be it curves,scimitars,airblades,hoops,ribbons,balls,etc..

i grow tired of seeing the same thing[flag,rifle,sabre]ad nauseum and would enjoy seeing new equipment,shapes and textures utilized in fresh creative ways.

choosing the right style of "equipment" for the production and what is best for your performers is what matters most.

Edited May 9, 2008 by dugg

[GuardFan(atic)]

i'm all for a variety of different apperatus being considered,be it curves,scimitars,airblades,hoops,ribbons,balls,etc..

i grow tired of seeing the same thing[flag,rifle,sabre]ad nauseum and would enjoy seeing new equipment,shapes and textures utilized in fresh creative ways.

choosing the right style of "equipment" for the production and what is best for your performers is what matters most.

enter carmel. such a refreshingly 'light' and whimsical show this season. they just had a ball their first season in world. good for them.

[quegrawks]

i'm all for a variety of different apperatus being considered,be it curves,scimitars,airblades,hoops,ribbons,balls,etc..

i grow tired of seeing the same thing[flag,rifle,sabre]ad nauseum and would enjoy seeing new equipment,shapes and textures utilized in fresh creative ways.

choosing the right style of "equipment" for the production and what is best for your performers is what matters most.

We repeatedly got "slammed" this year for not having an ensemble flag feature. Although I don't see anywhere on the sheets where that's a requirement or even an expectation? The only ensemble moment was 1 flag toss at the beginning of the ensemble flag (where I had A/B work). I didn't think the music called for it.

[Will]

Shouldn't the judges be judging what you ARE doing and not what they think you should be doing?? I understand they want to help make your program better, but it seems that they ought to leave the design choice up to you.

Lesson I learned from this past season - unless I have 15+ members, NEVER USE SWING FLAGS INDOORS! I got slammed for that all season.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Will

[byline]

Shouldn't the judges be judging what you ARE doing and not what they think you should be doing??

The eternal question.

[nhsalan]

The eternal question.

It's always a balancing act for every judge. I don't judge winterguard, but I do judge alot. From a winterguard perspective, if a guard comes out doing high speed, energetic rifle work to "Ave Maria", would you not tell them you don't think it's appropriate and they might want to consider something different? After all, that's a "design choice" too.

Just being devils advocate, I've been on both sides of that equation over the years and from the winterguard perspective, I've watched the obligatory "ensemble flag moment" thousands of times over the years.

[dugg]

I've watched the obligatory "ensemble flag moment" thousands of times over the years.

me too ...... and in most cases it's more than a bit stale and cliche ridden.....and yet the slack jawed yokels in the audience scream hysterically in approval and the spineless wgi judging community rewards it as if it were state of the art?

Edited May 11, 2008 by dugg

[Guardguy89]

me too ...... and in most cases it's more than a bit stale and cliche ridden.....and yet the slack jawed yokels in the audience scream hysterically in approval and the spineless wgi judging community rewards it as if it were state of the art?

Not sure I agree with this. The "all flag statement" might be cliché - but it has remained popular over the years as a GE attention grabbing moment. Why? Because it illicits a gut reaction from both the general viewing public and the judges (when it's well timed, choreographed and performed) - and at the end of the day isn't that a real GE moment? We are a competitive sport - but with an entertainment focus - so why not use a proven design element that appeals to both equations?

Some choreographers purposely leave out all flag statements now - and I can't figure it out. Maybe it's my advertising background - but you need to be able to figure out what appeals to a large portion of the people - and work it in in such a way as to make it fresh - but don't leave it out because everybody else is doing it.

Later,

Mike

[byline]

It's always a balancing act for every judge. I don't judge winterguard, but I do judge alot. From a winterguard perspective, if a guard comes out doing high speed, energetic rifle work to "Ave Maria", would you not tell them you don't think it's appropriate and they might want to consider something different? After all, that's a "design choice" too.

I might make mention of it on my judge's tape, but IMO, if performed well, it's not worth hammering them in their guard score . . . which I believe is what the other poster was referring to. If, as a judge, I ever nailed a guard in its interpretation, it was because I could clearly see that a guard's execution was suffering because the performers didn't get the musical interpretation, couldn't connect what they were doing visually with what they were hearing musically, and so everything fell apart. But when I did that, I made note of it on my judge's tape so that the guard and instructors could understand my rationale for doing so.

I'll never forget the time that one of my guards (outdoor) was judged at a pretty major contest with both prelims and finals. We'd received lots of feedback from judges all season long, but in this particular instance, the judge -- who, by the way, hailed from a drum corps known for its guard -- had little to say except for our equipment changes, which he felt were in the wrong places. He then proceeded to spend his entire tape (I'm not exaggerating) explaining to us, in detail, where we should be doing our flag changes. Nothing, pro or con, about the show as it was happening. And the sad thing is, he did this in both his prelims and finals tapes. I was hoping for something a little more constructive from finals, but no, he launched into the same, "No, no, no! You're changing equipment in all the wrong places. This is where you need to have them, and here's my philosophy on equipment changes" tirade. He was like those annoying sports commentators who ramble on and on about some memory they have from 40 years ago. Meanwhile, significant plays are occurring but going completely unnoticed in all the yammering. It's pretty disappointing to have a judge's tape that you can't play for your kids because it's so irrelevant. I remember my kids wanting to hear what the judge had to say, and I told then, "Nope, sorry, I'm not wasting your time, or any more of mine, on that." They really couldn't believe that all he talked about were the equipment changes, but I was still too mad to waste valuable rehearsal time playing either tape for them. And the kicker -- as this judge should have realized -- is that it was far too late in the season to make the kind of extensive changes he was talking about. Geez, it still drives my blood pressure up just thinking about it, LOL!

Going back to the "musicality" issue, there are times when such moments, on paper, might not seem appropriate, but in actual fact are quite stunning. I've seen the opposite -- slow-speed rifle work in sections of music that seemed to call for more frenetic work -- and it actually worked quite well because what the rifle line was interpreting was an underlying passage of music, not the melody. You see that contrast a lot: the flag line interprets one line of music, the weapons another. (I tended to go with the flag line having the more melodic lines, the rifle line the more percussive elements.) I just like that kind of visual interest. But what I call "musical" may differ wildly from what someone else hears. And, to be honest, what was once "musical" to me doesn't always age well. I've looked at several of my past shows and wondered, "What the heck was I thinking?" But, at the time, that's what I heard in the music, and I wouldn't have written it any other way. I would now . . . but that's one of those "that was then, this is now" instances.

Not sure I agree with this. The "all flag statement" might be cliché - but it has remained popular over the years as a GE attention grabbing moment. Why? Because it illicits a gut reaction from both the general viewing public and the judges (when it's well timed, choreographed and performed) - and at the end of the day isn't that a real GE moment? We are a competitive sport - but with an entertainment focus - so why not use a proven design element that appeals to both equations?

I agree with you. I think that if guard, as an activity, becomes so esoteric that there are no moments the audience can latch onto (and drum corps came dangerously close to this during the past decade), then there's no reason to perform in front of an audience. If all you're doing is stuff to wow the judges, then why factor the audience into the equation at all? Just write for judges and empty seats. But if the goal is to engage and enthrall the audience, while impressing the judges, then that's an altogether different -- and, I think, even more challenging -- type of writing. But yes, it does mean that we rely on certain conventions that are sure to wow the audience. A well-executed ensemble flag feature is one of those things. And hey, maybe it's because I'm an old, tired flag person, but I confess to still loving those moments, myself!

Edited May 11, 2008 by byline

[quegrawks]

I agree with you. I think that if guard, as an activity, becomes so esoteric that there are no moments the audience can latch onto (and drum corps came dangerously close to this during the past decade), then there's no reason to perform in front of an audience. If all you're doing is stuff to wow the judges, then why factor the audience into the equation at all? Just write for judges and empty seats. But if the goal is to engage and enthrall the audience, while impressing the judges, then that's an altogether different -- and, I think, even more challenging -- type of writing. But yes, it does mean that we rely on certain conventions that are sure to wow the audience. A well-executed ensemble flag feature is one of those things. And hey, maybe it's because I'm an old, tired flag person, but I confess to still loving those moments, myself!

But shouldn't you also attempt to educate the audience as to what can be effective? You don't need an ensemble flag feature to have GE in the show.

Fantasia's show this past year was FULL of GE, and not one single flag. San Jose Raiders' Bolero full of GE-- no flags. Northern Lights "Imagine" show-- most effective GE moments? The body statement section of the show (imo).

Stoneman Douglas? Their BIGGEST GE moment for the past 4 or 5 seasons has been the soloist doing a sabre toss with a 4 or 5 spin underneath it.