What Happens if the Cadets win?

[BeinGreen]

Yeah, I love these stories. Off topic, I know. Mozart had little acceptance in Vienna. In Prague he was a sensation. It's funny visiting Vienna today (one of my favorite cities) because Mozart is every where. I think Wagner actually intended to write a 13:30 to 14:30 opera (The Ring). I once had a recording that was over 17 hours and it was ridiculously slow. Still, The Ring is awesome and one of my favorites. To get on topic - yes the Cadets are less valid than any of these great artists....all drum corps are <- I said that to myself.

Im kinda with this guy, Mozart was well accepted and these composers occupy a different place in history than drum & bugle corps or marching bands.

Trying to call this stuff "art" too often is an attempt to brainwash people with legitimate criticism. Let's not be completely full of ourselves. If you want to really make the comparison between drum corps and classical orchestra then let's do it right. How many "good shows" are there with amplified narraration on the orchestra stage? A Lincoln Portrait perhaps (Im not even crazy about that, "this is what he said, this is what Abe Lincoln said"...) even that gets a little tiresome. I like the sound of instruments, it is what I go to hear. Amplified voice, it is like when the flash goes off on a camera, you cant see for a few seconds, amplified voice interrupts the continuity of sound from non amplified instruments.

How would classical audiences react if for instance the Philly Orchestra started adding amplified voice doing narration to every concert? If what was sacred to orchestra fans, like Beethoven's 5th suddenly began to be explained or if some spoken "story" were added to it. Does it need that? Is it art then?

Edited July 9, 2008 by BeinGreen

[craiga]

Comparing the Cadets to the works of great masters like Mozart is the height of hubris. The Cadets are NOT art.......neither is any other group. They are simply a drum corps. Their design team reminds me of the story about the Emporer's New Clothes, where all the "enlightened" people applauded the naked Emporer only because it was the thing to do, when in fact, there was no substance.

I have seen the Cadets in person, and while the corps is great the show is terrible. It is condescending and patronizing, and as a 30 year veteran of this activity (and someone who had two college degrees), I "get" it, but I also find the show to be nothing more than an excercise in ego by the design team while demeaning the corps members. I am embarassed for them, much like one feels when a comic onstage is bombing. THAT is why I am uncomfortable watching this show.

Unfortunately, in DCI, that which is rewarded is what is perpetuated, so if they win, brace yourselves. If I want "art" , I'll go to the Museum of Art---which I do. For the rest of this season, the Cadets will be my hot dog corps.

Hopkins needs to retire and let someone younger and fresher take the Cadets in a new direction. This "anti-audience" show design year after year is getting old, and alienating the corps from its fan base, which is literally shrinking by the day.

[KingJoeVII]

Here it is again: the meme that we're seeing something fundamentally paradigm shifting from the Cadets, and that it belongs in the realm of other misunderstood masterpieces.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think we've seen this every year since 2006 . . .the fact that since the judges aren't giving out 99.15's and the crowd doesn't "get it", that there's just too much for us poor little lizard-brain "I LIKE TEH LOUD" fans to absorb.

If we were in that realm, I think we'd see more analysis that, indeed, the bar had been raised . . .more people expressing their opinions on what they seen and supposedly couldn't process, and so on.

What we do have is something most of us familiar with the marching arts have seen before: a show that's carried by a narrative theme. It's no different than a lot of other shows that have come along in Bands of America's circuit, or elsewhere. The gravitas of the issues cancer raise will never be covered in eleven and a half minutes by relating one persons story as it stands now.

Framing the device in a faux NPR scheme does little to move the chains of design further . . . it only serves as a familiar, comfortable environment that's the furthest thing from creating artistic history. Drum corps remains an art form that borrows from other, more well-known places in culture (excepting some original music shows over the past two decades). There is no artistic revolution in rehashing or riffing on something else, no matter how well you do it.

Star of Indiana 1993 was, indeed, an exploration of human emotion . . .one that encompassed anger, jealousy and several other emotions . . difference being from the story-narrative of now, though . . is one of letting the music and visual do that talking, rather than beating people over the head. While the music was borrowed from Barber and Bartok, the emotional starkness of the uniforms and visual book was not. The emotions you feel from that show aren't ones borne of a narrative cueing device.

Drum corps excels in presenting a big picture of emotions and themes. It does not translate well when it tries to focus on the singular.

Sarah Jones story, if told across the radio waves, might be a powerful elixir . . .because the radio art form (This American Life in particular) makes you consider these stories on their own. No musical interludes, no visual ones. Just the story of a life to consider. . .as you drive down a road, jog down a street, or sit and listen.

See a pattern? Those are all things you do, for the most part, alone. There's a dichotomy between putting Sarah Jones on the field behind music, flags and everything else. It rings hollow, for the emotional weight that George and company are trying to put upon it is lost . . and is only processed on a singular, direct level.

Breast cancer, happiness, love . . .all of these are important things. People (contrary to what the above post seems to say) are more than smart enough to sense that . . .but as there is only a chance to put these out as a framing layer behind music and motion, people also sense the fact that it's being presented in order to try to press certain emotional, theatrical or storytelling buttons.

As to changing the artisitic process within drum corps:

-maybe the Cadets could release a free, extended track with Sarah's conversations about her life prior to the show for those that wanted to drink in the story in its own right.

-perhaps the Cadets pre-show should jump immediately into Sarah's story, without any other competition, in order to try to give it some weight and depth, perhaps even going so far as making her story a narrative that, at every show, is added to. . .so the journey at the end of the season is different than the one at the beginning.

-maybe dropping the NPR pretense totally, and construction of the narrative again . . .from a larger emotional point. No more Sarah Jones, but instead look outside of one person and focus on the larger, big picture of the concept of happiness. No more "I", but more "our". Make that big picture connect with the big visuals and horn book.

All of these look away from the tired, already-done concepts in Bands of America and elsewhere towards making narrative storytelling something more than it is now, and towards a great cohesiveness between storycraft and music/motion.

The Cadets haven't done it yet. They may not be the ones who do end up fundamentally changing things with narration, as electronics are on the horizon, and will offer another emotional crutch for the design staff . . .so we move away from anyone even trying to expand beyond what was cool at BOA or WGI last year.

I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. . . but, IMO, from about five years of usage so far, the easy way out is what everyone seems to prefer. I don't know why, honestly. Every year I see people post on DCP and elsewhere who have ideas that would truly be experimental in nature to try: shows based on math, shows that change every night, shows that are based on off-the-wall concepts no one has ever tried. . . there's so much that we can do, but so little we actually see done in this regard.

True risk involves a real threat of failure.

Are the Cadets ready for that? Is anyone?

2009 is your move, folks . . .

I agree with Drumcorpsfan (wow, never thought I would say that)...post of the decade....

Maybe the Cadets should go in exhibition the rest of the year. I think a lot of the issues come with the silly "competition" part of the activity. They could then make the show as long as it needed to be showing the proper development of the story. I'm not sure how legitimate it is to put a story like this on in a competitive environment. If the narrative and message are truly important, they should not be distracted by trying to conform with the rules of competition.

Going even further, I believe competition is ultimately holding the activity back. How can you explore these different forms and ideas when you are worrying about impressing some judges? I don't think in the current paradigm we will ever see anything truly revolutionary simply because the risk of loosing is too great. The focus has become beating corps XYZ and not on creating a program that is based solely on its artistic and entertainment value.

Until competition is abolished, or given less importance in Drum Corps, I do not see much changing...

[BigSnareline]

Comparing the Cadets to the works of great masters like Mozart is the height of hubris. The Cadets are NOT art.......neither is any other group. They are simply a drum corps. Their design team reminds me of the story about the Emporer's New Clothes, where all the "enlightened" people applauded the naked Emporer only because it was the thing to do, when in fact, there was no substance.

I have seen the Cadets in person, and while the corps is great the show is terrible. It is condescending and patronizing, and as a 30 year veteran of this activity (and someone who had two college degrees), I "get" it, but I also find the show to be nothing more than an excercise in ego by the design team while demeaning the corps members. I am embarassed for them, much like one feels when a comic onstage is bombing. THAT is why I am uncomfortable watching this show.

Unfortunately, in DCI, that which is rewarded is what is perpetuated, so if they win, brace yourselves. If I want "art" , I'll go to the Museum of Art---which I do. For the rest of this season, the Cadets will be my hot dog corps.

Hopkins needs to retire and let someone younger and fresher take the Cadets in a new direction. This "anti-audience" show design year after year is getting old, and alienating the corps from its fan base, which is literally shrinking by the day.

[randomnoise]

What happens if Cadets win?

Dr. Peter Venkman: A disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

[BigSnareline]

What happens if Cadets win?

Dr. Peter Venkman: A disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Post of the week!

[truman]

The two posts above by Bawker and craiga really captured the essence of feelings that ALOT of Drum Corps fans have right now, including me, so thanks you two!

By nature, drum corps fans are very willing to appreciate something that is not in the mainstream of public popularity.

To alienate them by confusing innovation with failure is discouraging.

The fans, old and new, and more importantly the Cadets kids, deserve better.

l...........l

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[cowtown]

Here it is again: the meme that we're seeing something fundamentally paradigm shifting from the Cadets, and that it belongs in the realm of other misunderstood masterpieces.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think we've seen this every year since 2006 . . .the fact that since the judges aren't giving out 99.15's and the crowd doesn't "get it", that there's just too much for us poor little lizard-brain "I LIKE TEH LOUD" fans to absorb.

great post !!!

You're not alone Capt - not even close. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up watching drum corps entirely but I know I'm going to cringe the first time I hear an electric keyboard played in the pit.

yeah, I don't think it's fair that some of us have to leave D/C because a few corps will use electronics the first year – after a while, the judges will impose their wrath of those that have the political power within DCI and force all corps to use them, kind of like amps and any key but that will take a year or two

so I suggest booing them, any corps that uses electronic instruments should get booed

hey, we saw how booing woke people up last year

and to the OP

I saw Star 93 many times live, I didn't like it then and I still don't like it, and yeah, I understood it - do you?

[LAMystreaux]

... And the winner for Best Supporting Post in a Dramatic Role goes to....

Funny stuff!

[Tom D'Bomb]

I have read many commentaries for the last four years and I find the whole discussion concerning the Cadets rather interesting. I have listened people complain about their production style and how offensive their story-telling is – either through voice over or props. I try to compare this to various art styles and these thoughts come to mind.

Of course Cadets changed drum corp for the better in the early eighties and we have never looked back. Star of Indiana’s wonderful production of Walton’s ‘Belshazar’s Feast’ provided us the nuance and a sublime power of a true art form. Probably their defining moment of neo-contemporary drum corps art was with ‘The Music of Barber and Bartok’ which exposed people to music that they would never had listened to and then they brought it to the Broadway stage for millions more to see. Do we dismiss their efforts because they performed visual music that may have made some people uncomfortable?

Mozart had little acceptance during his life – yet he is considered our most revered composer. Bach was unknown throughout most of Europe, yet he is considered our Baroque giant; Beethoven couldn’t even hear his own music yet he was a master genius; Wagner wrote a 16 hour opera – how’s that for pushing the envelope? Stravinsky’s music started a riot during a performance – how has he changed history? Have you heard Stravinsky’s serialistic music? Is it less valid than Petroushka or Firebird?

Does Piccasso have a place in history? How about Klee, Monet, Chagall, Cezanne, Dali, Warhol, Pollack, Ernst et. al.? Do we dismiss them just because they created art that may have created discomfort? What about our contemporary poets and writers?

Many show themes are created from concepts of chaos, violence, sex and conflict resolution. Where would drum corps be without ‘Spartacus’, ‘West Side Story’ ‘007’ and ‘The Godfather’?

I think that many people dislike the Cadets (especially this year) because their show concepts make them feel uncomfortable – God forbid that may happen at a drum corps show. Don’t want to talk about cancer, death, unhappiness, trying to find yourself – maybe because we all struggle with those same issues and we don’t want to be reminded of our own worries and weaknesses.

All art needs people to push the envelope – for better or for worse. Cadets have been doing that for thirty years.

And what if the Cadets win? Will we have a riot like at the Paris Ballet during the performance of “The Rite of Spring”? It is just my humble opinion that most remarkable and memorable moments in history are not created during moments of mediocrity but rather when people are feeling discomfort. So love them or hate them, the bottom line is that I am proud of those kids – they do not accept mediocrity, they are pushing the envelope and doing it artistically.

Yep... Piccasso, Klee, Monet, Chagall, Cezanne, Dali, Warhol, Pollack, Ernst, Groenig.... AND of course, Hopkins.

Ironically (little known fact) they were all sticklers for bright HashMarks.