Bob984 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The judging emphasis is now leaning very heavily toward the visual product, and in the cases of superiority of visual over music, visual has won each time...... Blue Devils..........were 2nd in music in Atlanta, 4th in Murfreesboro, and 3rd in Atlanta.....yet they remain undefeated Cavaliers remain solidly in the hunt even though they have lost music in every major showdown Phantom has won music numerous times, and Crown has beaten both BD and Cavs as well, yet neither has a single win over them.. last year, Cavs had a few shows where they were actually 5th/6th in music, yet were within tenths of winning the show..... Visual judges give substantial spreads, especially in effect, even if they do not seem to be merited.......music judges tend to keep spreads much smaller, even if a spread seems to be in order..... Music effect judging on many nights is warped to the point that it should not be called such...... Music used to be 65% of the score to 35% visual....now it is 50/50.....we have much visual terminology on music sheets.... It is very evident that the visual product and performance has been given much more emphasis than music by the judging community.........there was even a movement (defeated, for now) to eliminate the seperation of music/visual effect and just have "effect', which would take music out of the quotient even more.... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyonepointthree Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The judging emphasis is now leaning very heavily toward the visual product, and in the cases of superiority of visual over music, visual has won each time......Blue Devils..........were 2nd in music in Atlanta, 4th in Murfreesboro, and 3rd in Atlanta.....yet they remain undefeated Cavaliers remain solidly in the hunt even though they have lost music in every major showdown Phantom has won music numerous times, and Crown has beaten both BD and Cavs as well, yet neither has a single win over them.. last year, Cavs had a few shows where they were actually 5th/6th in music, yet were within tenths of winning the show..... Visual judges give substantial spreads, especially in effect, even if they do not seem to be merited.......music judges tend to keep spreads much smaller, even if a spread seems to be in order..... Music effect judging on many nights is warped to the point that it should not be called such...... Music used to be 65% of the score to 35% visual....now it is 50/50.....we have much visual terminology on music sheets.... It is very evident that the visual product and performance has been given much more emphasis than music by the judging community.........there was even a movement (defeated, for now) to eliminate the seperation of music/visual effect and just have "effect', which would take music out of the quotient even more.... GB What visual terminology is on the music sheets? Last time I saw them (2004), there wasn't anything on them about visual. The reason Cavaliers and BD are "in the hunt" so you say, though they "lose" music, is because their shows are well coordinated and there is no major weakness. If Cavaliers are still in it, it is because, though they "lose" music, their "loss" isn't huge...they are usually second or third. Now, it is obvious you want PR to win. The problem? They might win "music" by a few tenths, but the LOSE visual by a huge margin. You can't win being 5th place in overall visual. And, three big shows this year, they have been 5th in visual...not just one aspect bringing them down, but CONSISTENT visual numbers that are around 5th place. Your issue is with the Cavaliers. We get it. Ladies and Gentlemen, Bob984 does not like the Cavaliers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 That's the way it should be. Don't get me wrong, it's all about music education, but if you were looking to just judge music then you'd go to a jazz competition or a city wide band festival. In a marching organization we've added a visual package to it, and with the exception of marching band, members rarely have exposure to this outside of drum corps. Music they practice all year long in their high schools and colleges, and members come into the game pretty proficient at it, where as visual they don't practice day in and day out in their regular lives, or at least not as much. So when a bunch of musicians are competing against each other all summer long, they need to be judged on something pretty heavily that isn't the norm for all of them, and that's visual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekkles Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 What visual terminology is on the music sheets? Last time I saw them (2004), there wasn't anything on them about visual.The reason Cavaliers and BD are "in the hunt" so you say, though they "lose" music, is because their shows are well coordinated and there is no major weakness. If Cavaliers are still in it, it is because, though they "lose" music, their "loss" isn't huge...they are usually second or third. Now, it is obvious you want PR to win. The problem? They might win "music" by a few tenths, but the LOSE visual by a huge margin. You can't win being 5th place in overall visual. And, three big shows this year, they have been 5th in visual...not just one aspect bringing them down, but CONSISTENT visual numbers that are around 5th place. Your issue is with the Cavaliers. We get it. Ladies and Gentlemen, Bob984 does not like the Cavaliers! PRE-POST EDIT: i was going to make a sarcastic comment about how unhelpful this post was, but i just got out of bed like five minutes ago, so i'm finding it hard thinking of a colorful way to say "subversive attack posts like these do not facilitate a good debate." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 What visual terminology is on the music sheets? Last time I saw them (2004), there wasn't anything on them about visual. I believe the music effect sheet calls for the judge to evaluate the "audio/video responsibilities" of the players. I also think this is the reason why music effect often seems to reach such counter-intuitive scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relmquist Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 What visual terminology is on the music sheets? Last time I saw them (2004), there wasn't anything on them about visual.The reason Cavaliers and BD are "in the hunt" so you say, though they "lose" music, is because their shows are well coordinated and there is no major weakness. If Cavaliers are still in it, it is because, though they "lose" music, their "loss" isn't huge...they are usually second or third. Now, it is obvious you want PR to win. The problem? They might win "music" by a few tenths, but the LOSE visual by a huge margin. You can't win being 5th place in overall visual. And, three big shows this year, they have been 5th in visual...not just one aspect bringing them down, but CONSISTENT visual numbers that are around 5th place. Your issue is with the Cavaliers. We get it. Ladies and Gentlemen, Bob984 does not like the Cavaliers! If you are so knowledgeable please explain the contention that there is a much wider "spread" in visual scores than actual music? I think that this is the salient point here: What is the standard? How can there be 1 - 2 point spreads in visual, when in music captions it just does not exist. I know that you will say that the corp that benefits from this is just better, but why is it when a corp has an obvious low quality performance there score does not drop this 1 - 2 points as in the visual. This is the point you need to address rather than attack the person who asked the question. I think it is a proper question and should be addressed by someone as knowledgable as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dciguy01 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The minute I saw the title, I knew it was a bash on Cavies and for Phantom... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 What visual terminology is on the music sheets? Last time I saw them (2004), there wasn't anything on them about visual.The reason Cavaliers and BD are "in the hunt" so you say, though they "lose" music, is because their shows are well coordinated and there is no major weakness. If Cavaliers are still in it, it is because, though they "lose" music, their "loss" isn't huge...they are usually second or third. Now, it is obvious you want PR to win. The problem? They might win "music" by a few tenths, but the LOSE visual by a huge margin. You can't win being 5th place in overall visual. And, three big shows this year, they have been 5th in visual...not just one aspect bringing them down, but CONSISTENT visual numbers that are around 5th place. Your issue is with the Cavaliers. We get it. Ladies and Gentlemen, Bob984 does not like the Cavaliers! Your reply is filled with insunations....mine simply stated facts.....BD and Cavs are not winning music, but remain 1-2 due to visual scoring. Period. Neither corps has won music even once in the big showdowns. And if you are fine with that, fine. You are right that you can't win being 5th in overall visual (or even 3rd)....but you absolutely can win these days if you are 3rd, 4th, or even 5th in music. (Devs already had a big win while finishing 4th in music. The visual terminology I am referring to is the word "design", which can be found many places on music sheets...music isn't "designed" (although perhaps it is, and thus the problem, with some corps....) it is composed or arranged. Visual coordination is part of the music effect sheet. Movement demand is on music performance sheets. In my opinion, the musical arrangements/compositions and material played by BD and Cavs are inferior in quality and content to that being performed by Phantom and Crown. If you disagree, that's your perogative. Whereas it is showing up in the numbers, the spreads do not indicate the difference.....and the music effect scores are inaccurate many times in my opinion. I have no qualms about the visual scores of BD/Cavs, although I question the spread at times.....I feel they are the best at visual execution at this point, but I do not see any superiority in content, and hear inferiority in musical content from both groups. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 That's the way it should be. Don't get me wrong, it's all about music education, but if you were looking to just judge music then you'd go to a jazz competition or a city wide band festival. In a marching organization we've added a visual package to it, and with the exception of marching band, members rarely have exposure to this outside of drum corps. Music they practice all year long in their high schools and colleges, and members come into the game pretty proficient at it, where as visual they don't practice day in and day out in their regular lives, or at least not as much.So when a bunch of musicians are competing against each other all summer long, they need to be judged on something pretty heavily that isn't the norm for all of them, and that's visual. All that I am saying is that visual captions are calling the results of all major shows, and that the scoring emphasis has gone from music (65%/35%) to visual (50/50 with too much "visual bleed" into the music captions). You have to win or be a close 2nd in visual to win a championship......on the other hand, you can be 4th or 5th in music and still take it. Many people are fine with that, many, including myself, are not. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekkles Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The minute I saw the title, I knew it was a bash on Cavies and for Phantom... number of times a corps was mentioned: phantom regiment - one cavaliers - three blue devils - two carolina crown - one the first post was not pro phantom, and it was not anti cavies. get over yourselves and look at the issue the op is actually talking about instead of making these passive aggressive responses. the op is commenting on the inequality between music and visual, in favor of visual, in a music based activity. as an example, he used a corps that has made their name on their visual product. that's all. the fact that all of you came into this topic identifying phantom as representing "music" and cavies as representing "visual," even though the op talked about a couple other corps, reveals your own biases and preconceptions, not the topic starter's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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