Class A 35 minimum rule

[Jeff Ream]

The thread has been quite rational, actually, except for moments when logic gets flung out the window in favor of pathos concerning how old guys who've been playing a long time would be horribly, horribly offended to have the word "novice" used anywhere near them.

There are good and cogent reasons, repeatedly elucidated in this thread and elsewhere, for the 35 minimum rule. It wasn't just come up with to screw over those massively-financially-successful small DCAS corps out of their rightful place in the top 5 at finals.

But so far, you've chosen to ignore those reasons to stay on a tear about how sorry DCA will be when you stop trying to give it $10k. *shrug*

Seriously, man, when someone posts a well-thought-out proposal that would suit many of your concerns and the concerns of the people and considerations you're set against, and you toss it aside because of a single word choice and it's length, then you pretty much lose any grasp you might have had at being anywhere near a position of being rational or looking for a solution to a problem.

Put it another way: Within a marching, competitive field drum & bugle corps, there's a guy who sees a problem with one of his drill moves. He doesn't seem to care about why the problem exists, he doesn't seem to care about how other people are affected by the problem, all he seems to give a care about is that he has a problem. He then proceeds to complain about the problem. Not come up with a solution, not figure out a work-around until someone else can solve it, not do his best to make sure the move works even with his problem, he just sits back and makes the entire drill rehearsal about how he has a problem and someone other than him needs to fix it.

Is that the guy that everyone wants to help, or is he the guy that everyone wants to ignore?

[Jeff Ream]

Which I guess is what I'm dealing with. Is that no one on DCP thinks it's a bad idea to exclude corps from participating in DCA. The rule as is excludes corps. Adjust it a tiny bit in either direction and either everyone gets to compete, or NO ONE gets to compete. I can understand it as a means of population control at Prelims. It doesn't mean I agree with it. But when you force it upon the regions, it leaves a vast void in some regions.

But I guess you've never spent 45+ minutes after your show explaining to 200+ audience members on a person by person basis why you didn't get a score when everyone else did. You didn't have to stand at retreat, while everyone else got scores. And any audience member who's been around is expecting the last corps score called to be the winner. Except that there's now corps on the field who aren't gonna get a score called.

As far as recruiting. We're new, we have virtually no equipment. We did manage to pick up uniforms this year, and a lot of guard equipment. And we plan on picking up drums and horns as dues / members allows. But for now each performing member with the exception of the guard owns the equipment they are using. Have you ever tried to recruit ten contras that owned their own horns? It's not as easy as just saying come on down, we have a horn waiting.

Excuses, cop outs, whatever. You don't care, you meet the minimum, or it just doesn't apply in your circumstance. Which is fine, but don't be telling me I'm wrong for caring. And otherwise being negatively affected by the rule.

Legaleese and whatever. It's still gonna come down to a yes or no vote. And I bet it'll get a NO as is. And I doubt that the original 35 proposal was that wordy. Or maybe it was, there seems to be a lot of confusion on it. As in originally though to not apply to regoins. Finding out after the fact, that if you do any show with less than 35 you could be fined $3K. Because according to the rules, you pulled out of that show by not meeting the minimum. And yet somehow all of this is supposed to promote growth.

Cozy Baker came and interviewed some of us in Atlanta. He even said the 35 rule is broken and needs to be fixed. Our drum major tried to talk to a DCA judge about the rule, and he literally ran away and ducked into a closet. And many other memories yet to be made next season.

many of us have said we're open to getting it changed too Shadow, but you dont see that. Sayre wrote out proposals, but you ignore that because your ego gets in the way. Also in terms of the regions, IMO, in many cases if you have different rules for different regions, it can create chaos. So, in many ways I applaud DCA for standardizing things across the country. it helps clear up a lot of confusion.

I have spent many hours explaining shows and trying to recruit people, and paying bills out of my own pocket to keep a corps alive and keep the reputation from getting worse. You can thank me now, because it affected you in 1998. As for retreat, I've had worse..I've had to watch several now where my corps wasn't around for. I'll take having a chance to play and not getting a score over being dead. A score is just a number dude...be ####### glad you get to perform. That mini corps you played with in 1998 partly came to be because I paid a lot of my own money to even keep it alive that far. Go ask Ann and Billy how I helped keeping drums from being repoed like the horns were.

as far as the vote...honestly...you haven't helped your cause one bit, and if i were a corps director reading this place and saw you, I'd wonder if it was worth the yes vote.

but check your ego at the door dude, and try to help as opposed to just ripping everything and everyone. I've been in your shoes helping to keep a corps going and done more than your continued sob story here about your sacrifices. Notice most of us dont feel the need to brag about what we do or did for our corps....we just did/do it.

That's what it's all about dude. For the team. You just whine about what WE can do for you. Here's what I can do for you...tell you to get some perspective, pony up and offer to help your management and offer ideas to make it work. Trust me, i could have done a lot of things with what I gave to Westshore, but it was for the corps I grew up with...and I don't regret it a bit. But you also don't see me brag about it while making myself to be a martyr.

Edited August 21, 2008 by jeffsnewjetta

[Kyle B]

Well, next year once he starts audio recording his corps, if it rains and he doesn't record, he knows who to complain too.

[Jeff Ream]

Olive branch to Jeff, because I have an unwielding respect for your opinion. It is not a patronizing respect so that I can deliver a punchline, it is borne of a three year relationship on DCP reading and conversing with you in this forum.

The tenor of my replies may have created an adverserial atmosphere within the thread and I will consider myself appropriately corrected.

Within the discussion, since nobody brought up the Ventures, I guess I will for the sake of a complete discussion. Their percussion ensemble during 1986-1989 was all mounted equipment and they re-defined the ensemble genre. Typically, they had 8-10 members in their ensemble, creating championship level contribution and effect (as well as a conundrum for the judging community.)

If I take the mounted percussion number (8) add it to the color guard minimum (5) and count the drum major (1), it leaves 21 for voicing in brass for a 35 person ensemble. Nice group.

18 horns can still put out a blended sound, so DCA 32 might be reasonable. So please consider my position amended to 32.

please dont take it as I was adversarial, I wasn't. I'm passionate on grounded percussion as I have lived it, and have seen the benefits. too often small groups try to make it work like a full corps would with too few bodies, and in the end it hurts them.

funny story...a few years ago I judged a grounded ensemble. had a rought night. staff comes in and starts blasting me that I hate grounded ensembles. So I asked them if they ever saw my old school. they said yes. I asked them if they liked the grounded set up we had...they said yes. I then introduced myself to them as their former caption head.

cricket, cricket

it's my belief if more smaller corps looked at options like this as opposed to trying to be like the big boys, they'd be a lot better off.

[wishbonecav]

I was invited by a staff member of the corps to Sun Devils rehearsal on more than one occasion and declined the invitation (not invited as an honored guest or VIP, just invited).

I declined b/c I knew at some point that I would be asked for my opinion and, unfortunately, I was not going to offer a cheerleader's response to their organizational endeavors.

Am I impressed with Sun Devils? To the point of absurdity. The fact that they have managed to outfit the corps (very impressive), staff the corps, garner membership, create a musical program from scratch, hit the field and then travel in competition, earning a score for the Samurai show in the process is an astounding achievement.

Absolutely astounding.

Back in March (when I was invited) my suggestions would have absolutely erred on the side of organizational caution. ergo Get a mini-corps together; create a brand; save your sheckels; don't go into debt for uniforms and equipment; establish a local presence; generate a buzz with a slow burn; hit the field in 2009.

And those suggestions would have been like bringing the ants to a picnic.

I am duly impressed with the Sun Devils and hope that the mortgage on 2008 is financed with an eye on 2009. In other words, I stand by my position, but I'd rather be wrong.

Go Sun Devils.

[Shadow_7]

Maybe Corps B needs to get off their butt and find one more member, so they can live happily ever after.

Case in point, it's all Corps B fault.

I've been in 90 member groups that were missing 22 members at at least one show during a season. Wasn't Corpsvets missing 14 members at their HOME show a few years back. It's not quite as simple as recruit one more member. There is no safety net. And I doubt DCA will approve a penalty for each member under rule, as it would give a degree of measureability to the greater issue. Even though it could fill the void 22-34.

[MarimbaManiac]

eh...make the minimum 50...or 80 even.

No particular reason, just so I can see someone pop a blood vessel all over DCP.

[Shadow_7]

many of us have said we're open to getting it changed too Shadow, but you dont see that. Sayre wrote out proposals, but you ignore that because your ego gets in the way.

What? I responded to it. And you even asked me to appologize for my response. What planet are we on again?

[84BDsop]

Case in point, it's all Corps B fault.

Jesus H. CHRIST, James....any miniscule cred you may have still managed to retain you just flushed down the porcelain fixture.

One person's a fixable deal...it's Srs corps....put a freakin staffer on triangle in the pit....get a friend to play triangle in the pit...KIDNAP SOMEONE....

It's one thing if it's 5 people short....but one? Quit #####ing and do something about it....stop blaming OTHERS FOR YOUR PROBLEMS!

I may have blamed DCI's policies for the necessity of dropping En Garde to Jr status last year, but I never ONCE blamed anyone but ourselves for the lack of successful recruiting.

[Jeff Ream]

What? I responded to it. And you even asked me to appologize for my response. What planet are we on again?

the one where you say i have said corps under 35 members arent worthy.