New "Off the Record" feature-Legends of the One-Valve Bugle

[MikeD]

Mike,

There are ALWAYS exceptions. I do think it's significant that you came up with a couple, as opposed to the number we had at our fingertips during the '60s and even '70s. It's just hard to think about taking (for instance) West Side Story around the block again, even though it's being rolled out on Broadway again.

Obviously I agree with your point - I just don't think it negates the issues of show choices that have arisen over the past couple of decades.

Yes, I agree with your overall statement too!

I think part of it is changes in how music is arranged today, and the expectation of how and when impacts are designed into the charts. We did "Knowing When To Leave" from "Promises, Promises" as our closer in 1970, for example...a pretty tune to get us off the field. I don't really see how a tune like that would work today.

OT...the new WSS is great...I saw the final dress rehearsal prior to the previews. Hearing one gang speak and sing in Spanish brings out the conflict between the two gangs.

[ironlips]

As many know, the challenge for arrangers of one-valve brass was to disguise the limitations of the horn by some form of musical deception.

When Angelica arranged West Side Story material for the first time for the Cadets in 1961, he had to find creative voicings to achieve all of maestro Bernstein's tritonic melodies and wicked modulations without sacrificing voice leading or paying the ultimate price to the intonation harpies lurking in the tubing.

He did a masterful job, as you will hear in a future episode.

[JimF-LowBari]

As many know, the challenge for arrangers of one-valve brass was to disguise the limitations of the horn by some form of musical deception.

A while back had the following conversation with a younger person who bought a used piston/rotor horn.

"What are the notes on this?"

"First valve is right thumb/valve, second valve is left thumb/rotor"

"But how do you play 3rd valve"

"Ya don't"

"HUH!!!!... but you can't play all the notes"

"RIGHT!"

"But how did they play all that music?"

"Creative arranging"

Is there a rough time line of when the various types of horns were used? When I listen to the older sounds I'd like to have an idea if the horn is P/R or piston/slide. Also wondering when corps started using piston/slides made by the companies instead of using "hand made" slides. Used a piston/slide Bari for a few months at practice when I started and what a beastly thing that was (but I didn't know how to clean it properly ).

LOL, have a 50s(?) one valve bass bari that does not have a rotor or slide. Maybe as a history lesson it should be worked into having a "hand made" slide some day.

Edited March 26, 2009 by JimF-3rdBari

[Mellofello01]

A while back had the following conversation with a younger person who bought a used piston/rotor horn.

"What are the notes on this?"

"First valve is right thumb/valve, second valve is left thumb/rotor"

"But how do you play 3rd valve"

"Ya don't"

"HUH!!!!... but you can't play all the notes"

"RIGHT!"

"But how did they play all that music?"

"Creative arranging"

Is there a rough time line of when the various types of horns were used? When I listen to the older sounds I'd like to have an idea if the horn is P/R or piston/slide. Also wondering when corps started using piston/slides made by the companies instead of using "hand made" slides. Used a piston/slide Bari for a few months at practice when I started and what a beastly thing that was (but I didn't know how to clean it properly ).

LOL, have a 50s(?) one valve bass bari that does not have a rotor or slide. Maybe as a history lesson it should be worked into having a "hand made" slide some day.

Jim,

There's an excellent "history of the bugle" at:

http://www.middlehornleader.com/Evolution%...the%20Bugle.htm

Check it out

[JimF-LowBari]

Jim,

There's an excellent "history of the bugle" at:

http://www.middlehornleader.com/Evolution%...the%20Bugle.htm

Check it out

Thanks Steve, been looking for a good site since Jeff Mitchells' has been classified "Not Found".

[Puppet]

Is there a rough time line of when the various types of horns were used? When I listen to the older sounds I'd like to have an idea if the horn is P/R or piston/slide. Also wondering when corps started using piston/slides made by the companies instead of using "hand made" slides. Used a piston/slide Bari for a few months at practice when I started and what a beastly thing that was (but I didn't know how to clean it properly ).

LOL, have a 50s(?) one valve bass bari that does not have a rotor or slide. Maybe as a history lesson it should be worked into having a "hand made" slide some day.

Heh, heh! I started playing in the early sixties on a Slingerland French horn (piston/slide) and as a kid who also played Horn in "F" in my orchestra, the learning curve was tremendous.

If you've listened to the Frank D. Fleetwood column that's the kind of horn Hy Dreitzer played during his solo.

One thing that comes to mind in cleaning the slide was very fine cloth sandpaper and brasso - the inner workings of the slide was un-coated brass and using copious amounts of valve oil on the slide before every rehearsal and show. Which BTW, ruined gloves at a staggering rate.

On another note of the times, there is a vivid memory in my mind of standing in the arc during rehearsals and hearing the distinctive "SNICK" of the slides slamming home from the various sections around you - a clear indication that your section was playing in perfect unison was when that sound happened as one instead of like a flam.

Puppet

[rayfallon]

Yes, I agree with your overall statement too!

I think part of it is changes in how music is arranged today, and the expectation of how and when impacts are designed into the charts. We did "Knowing When To Leave" from "Promises, Promises" as our closer in 1970, for example...a pretty tune to get us off the field. I don't really see how a tune like that would work today.

OT...the new WSS is great...I saw the final dress rehearsal prior to the previews. Hearing one gang speak and sing in Spanish brings out the conflict between the two gangs.

I never doubted the new WSS would swing - just don't know how much more we can do with it on a football field - but I've been wrong before.

Promises Promises was the first musical I ever saw on Broadway - just the reference makes me smile - I quote the lyrics to "Knowing when to Leave" all the time when dealing with folks who don't (know when to leave that is - at least figuratively and musically.) Loved that show AND Jerry Orbach. Some of the younger readers right now and going....errrr, yeah... whatever.

[rayfallon]

A while back had the following conversation with a younger person who bought a used piston/rotor horn.

"What are the notes on this?"

"First valve is right thumb/valve, second valve is left thumb/rotor"

"But how do you play 3rd valve"

"Ya don't"

"HUH!!!!... but you can't play all the notes"

"RIGHT!"

"But how did they play all that music?"

"Creative arranging"

Is there a rough time line of when the various types of horns were used? When I listen to the older sounds I'd like to have an idea if the horn is P/R or piston/slide. Also wondering when corps started using piston/slides made by the companies instead of using "hand made" slides. Used a piston/slide Bari for a few months at practice when I started and what a beastly thing that was (but I didn't know how to clean it properly ).

LOL, have a 50s(?) one valve bass bari that does not have a rotor or slide. Maybe as a history lesson it should be worked into having a "hand made" slide some day.

Frank and Jeff are literally historians - but in rough terms - the horn was in G and D with slip slide as of the late 40s through the early 60s, at which point a rotary valve was added for (especially) bass baritones to give the lower notes that couldn't be reached otherwise - that hinkey rotary valve if I'm not wrong was an F rotary. Correct me Frank.

Ted Sasso from Sun, one of the greatest bass players ever, played a Getzen contra (the small one) with a slip slide that went through the body of the horn so he could play it up in front with his left hand. Very cool.

In 1967 the change was made from G-D to G-F. Reading actually introduced a two piston horn, side by side horizontal pistons with the left one being valve 2 and the right being valve 1 - think that would blow your mind? The horns were deemed illegal by the VFW and AL and were left behind, maybe a good thing. In 1976 or 77, two valve horns were allowed to be replaced one voice at a time (???) which made me nuts, as we replaced all of our horns with brass lacquer at Bayonne in '78, meaning that we had to buy brand new piston rotor mellos and contras. (grumble grumble).

Then somewhere down the road they added the third valve and the entire universe as we know it came to an end, or so I've been told.

The single most amazing thing I've ever heard played on a single valve bugle (with slide) was John Simpson's Rhapsody in Blue on the Portrait in Brass album. Nothing else has ever come close (in my opinion.)

If you ever want to hear the valve and slip slide bugle played fabulously well, go hear Danny Fitzpatrick, former USMC D&B Corps, Archer-Epler, Reading, Baltimore, and even a cup of idecaf at Sunrisers. Although Dan's name is not floated with the legends, he's truly one of the most outrageous players I've ever encountered. He plays the old "french horn" bugle, with one valve and slide. Worth the trip to wherever you have to go to hear him play. If you don't believe me, ask Joe Guido or any of the Philadelphia area or old USMC guys. I kid you not. An absolute Bugle HoFame guy, but so modest no one ever hears his name. He just likes to play.

[MikeD]

I never doubted the new WSS would swing - just don't know how much more we can do with it on a football field - but I've been wrong before.

That is my fear for the Cadets show this year. I was not a fan of their 94 version. We'll see, I guess! I did like the "Our Side of the Story' show Surf did a few years back, and the Kiwanis Kavaliers show was good too, so who knows!

And oh...Dartmouth's indoor drumline did a wonderful version of WSS a number of years ago.

But in general...I know what you mean. I've heard it just waaaay too many times!

Promises Promises was the first musical I ever saw on Broadway - just the reference makes me smile - I quote the lyrics to "Knowing when to Leave" all the time when dealing with folks who don't (know when to leave that is - at least figuratively and musically.) Loved that show AND Jerry Orbach. Some of the younger readers right now and going....errrr, yeah... whatever.

Tht's cool! My first was Fiddler, though by the time I saw it as an 8th grader, Zero Mostel was no longer in it. Herschel Bernadi was Tevye (he was 'Arnie' on the old sitcom from around 1970).

Our closing fanfare was the "Promises, Promises" main theme. George Tuthill created a neat percussion feature...he took "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" from the show (a pop hit for Dionne Warwick too) and put the melody in the timpani line. When they got the tuning right it was neat...when it didn't...ewwww!

[JimF-LowBari]

Thanks for the good info Ray, just want to add to two things (and hope I don't derail Franks thread too much).

In 1967 the change was made from G-D to G-F. Reading actually introduced a two piston horn, side by side horizontal pistons with the left one being valve 2 and the right being valve 1 - think that would blow your mind? The horns were deemed illegal by the VFW and AL and were left behind, maybe a good thing.

My first corps (Keystone Kavaliers) actually had the two piston tenor(?) Baris. No idea about the rest of the horn line. Never heard of Drum Corps before so I was too dumb to realize I was playing such a rare horn. Didn't even take a picture of the flippin' thing during the few months I was with the corps. Corps merged with reformed Westshoremen mainly because of lack of bodies and illegal horns. Asked Donnie Sollinger what happened with Readings horns but either he wasn't sure or they did not end up with KeyKav. All I remember is they were horrible to snap up because your hands were right on top of each other (and I have small hands).

If you ever want to hear the valve and slip slide bugle played fabulously well, go hear Danny Fitzpatrick, former USMC D&B Corps, Archer-Epler, Reading, Baltimore, and even a cup of idecaf at Sunrisers. Although Dan's name is not floated with the legends, he's truly one of the most outrageous players I've ever encountered. He plays the old "french horn" bugle, with one valve and slide. Worth the trip to wherever you have to go to hear him play. If you don't believe me, ask Joe Guido or any of the Philadelphia area or old USMC guys. I kid you not. An absolute Bugle HoFame guy, but so modest no one ever hears his name. He just likes to play.

Thanks, will have to try to remember this. Thanks to some of the USAF Bolling Field members I also have CDs of their shows, which is part of the current "OTR". Just great solo work and overall playing the whoel way thru. Just have to keep reminding myself that the horns were limited in what they could do.