Elite Corps - Is there a limit?

[Bruckner8]

Interesting, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with most of this.

However, if you note that Phantom tied once in the 90's, it's only fair to say that SCV's "only" win of the last two decades (90's & 00's) was also a tie. In fact, SCV has only placed in the Top 3 five times in the last 20 seasons. Granted, Phantom "only" has 8 Top 3 placements in that same period. Do you keep SCV at 'Super Elite' status because of their success 30 + years ago under a completely different judging system, taking little/no modern history into account?

In that same 20 season period:

* Cavaliers = 15 Top 3 finishes (15/20: that's pretty darn elite; 7 Championships)

* Cadets = 14 Top 3 finishes (14/20: not too shabby either; 5 Championships)

* Blue Devils = 14 Top 3 finishes (14/last 15 seasons! 6 Championships)

Really no other corps in DCI comes close to that. Looking at those numbers, the rest of DCI World Class only had 17 chances to place Top 3, and only TWO chances for Championships (minus those three pesky ties) from 1989-2009!

I guess judging off of that, you can say, really, the only true "elite" corps are The Cavaliers, The Cadets, and Blue Devils. Everyone else has a LOT of work to do to even come close to the consistent success of these three corps!

Just for fun, other Top 3 corps from the past 20 years of DCI:

* Phantom Regiment = 8 Top 3 finishes (2 Championships)

* Santa Clara Vanguard = 5 Top 3 finishes (2 Championships)

* Star of Indiana = 4 Top 3 finishes (1 Championship); not bad considering they've competed in only 5/20 of those seasons

You insist on cherry-picking timeframes. I insist on using all of the history. I don't care what the criteria is/was. I already said that SCV is in danger of moving off, but it will take time. You're bent on removing them now, using modern competition. That's cool. I'm also on record as calling BD/CAV/CAD the Modern Top 3. (In my original Competitive Inertia post). I hear ya...I'm just not as ready to throw away those early wins, especially when 85 and 88 probably should've gone to SCV anyway! (Flame alert!)

[Bruckner8]

If Star had stuck around, would they have become "super elite"?

Absolutely. And Cavies wouldn't even be in the discussion, cuz they'd be stuck on 3. SCV would be stuck on 5. BD/CADETS/STAR would be the Top 3.

Gawd, DCI woulld be so much better had Star stuck around. They pushed everyone to be a lot more precise about timing and cleanliness. Musically, meh, but man they could execute "stuff" like no one else.

[smj02]

And

7) There have been only 5 Corps that have been "elite" corps more than 10 times in the history of DCI. Those are:

BD - 30

SCV - 23

Cadets - 22

Cavies - 19

Phantom - 15

And in the past 10 years, only the Cavies have made the cut every single year.

If you still have it, can you post the complete list? Am I forgetting anyone else besides Madison and Star who made the cut more than once? Blue Stars in the 70s maybe?

[brians]

ill do one thing at a time.

Bluecoats top 6-4 times

Crown top 6-2 times

they have only been there for a couple of years like you said about glassmen BK and Boston.

Glassmen and Boston have more top 6 then crown.

Blue Stars havent been in the top 6 so how does that make them elite and they could be a fluke you need to see a couple years and consistency. they could do what glassmen did in the end of the 90s and beginning of the 00s.

Glassmen were more then 2 points in finals which is a lot for finals.

Madison will always be elite no matter what place the end in.

SCV is just fine. they have been in the top 6 in the last 5 years more then Bloo and Crown.

just my $.02

Keep in mind that up until 1980, the Blue Stars and Santa Claira were the only 2 corps to have made the top 12 every year since DCI began. Blue Stars, as was mentioned earlier, were there in the beginning and were considered one of the elite for their time with numerous top six placements. (not to mention top placements prior to DCI) They are now trying to regain that status, and with any luck, will be back to where they once were again.

Edited June 10, 2009 by brians

[AzEuph]

I admit I skipped a few pages.

I'm not saying Crown or Bluecoats can't become elite, but I don't feel they need a championship to be considered "elite". If that's the criteria then Phantom didn't become elite until 1996, which I find hard to believe. I think a consistant level of top 3 placements is in order over the short run, and probably top 5 over 20+ years.

With that said, anyways SCV hasn't placed in top 3 since 04 I would still consider them an elite corps. Throughout their history they have shown consistany in placing in the top 5 and we can all acknowledge they are in a funk right now but considering 8th, 6th, 5th, 7th are a funk most corps would die for that level of standard.

Again with Phantom, I would have considered them elite before the '96 season. But it was Phantoms consistant placement towards the top in DCI over a long span of time that made them an elite corps in my opinion.

[jjeffeory]

If Star had stuck around, would they have become "super elite"?

I would say, YES. They may have given BD a run for their money during the late 90s. After their build to top 3 in 1990, they were there and they were likely to stay there. They had the staff, membership, and other attributes to stay there... Who knows if the Cavalier domination of the 2k would have happened?

[jjeffeory]

You insist on cherry-picking timeframes. I insist on using all of the history. I don't care what the criteria is/was. I already said that SCV is in danger of moving off, but it will take time. You're bent on removing them now, using modern competition. That's cool. I'm also on record as calling BD/CAV/CAD the Modern Top 3. (In my original Competitive Inertia post). I hear ya...I'm just not as ready to throw away those early wins, especially when 85 and 88 probably should've gone to SCV anyway! (Flame alert!)

Heh, I agree with you about '88 for sure. I'm not convinced about '85. Garfield's show was revolutionary. SCV's show was a masterpiece. I still think Cavies would have been in the mix though. Their history and earlier championships in the non-DCI era would have helped ensure that. Maybe they would have gotten 2 less during the last 10 years?

[smj02]

And say Phantom had pulled out a title or two in the late 70s, snuck ahead of SCV in '89 and edged BD by .05 in '96. Would they already be clearly "super elite"?

[jwillis35]

Some good discussion.

As to the question of whether there is a ceiling on elite status, I would say yes. There are only so many kids that are going to march drum corps. Although there is plenty of talent to go around, and many corps are able to take advantage of that. However, there are a few corps that get more than their share...a lot more. Even though this is NOT the only thing that makes a corps good, it certainly provides a starting point. Already that limits the number of corps that realistically have a chance at a top 5, 6 or 7 spot.

Now, I agree with many others who say that just being in the top 5 or top 7 does not make you elite. I believe this to be true.

Becoming truly elite starts with the talent within the membership, but, as we all know, you must also have a staff to go along with that talent. That staff must be able to work together, and the synergy and creativity they bring forth, and the teaching they provide the members ultimately becomes the crux of success, whatever that will be.

Having said that, I see elite in three distinct ways:

1. All-Time History

2. Recent History

3. Current Season

I see this argument much the way the census bureau ranks population centers (in city populations, metropolitan statistical areas or MSAs, and Combined Statistical Areas or CSAs). Each methods produces different results and also some similarities.

Example: Cleveland, OH is no longer a big city in terms of in-city population. I think they rank in the 50s nation wide. But according to the MSA they are 25th, and by the CSA they are 15th.

In the 1970s and 80s SCV was clearly an elite corps. No question about it. In the 90s and 2000s I would say no. Not when you consider the whole of those 20 years (well, almost 20 after this year). Their best period of time during the 1990s and 2000s was during the years 1997 - 1999. Top 3 each year. All the other years did not bode as well, although they are always a very good corps.

If we combine the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, I would say they are an elite corps over that long-term run. If we only combine the 90s and 2000s, then I say no.

The Blue Devils and Cadets were clearly elite corps in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. The Cavaliers were not an elite in the 80s, although very good. The Cadets were not in the 70s, nor were the Cavaliers, but BD was (largely because their last half of that decade makes up for the 1st part, and DCI only started in 1972.).

So we can look at this by examining various periods of time and by combining decades, etc.

All-time history would mean, at least in terms of the DCI era, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s. Recent History could be any 5 or 10 years, or perhaps 20 years.

The third way is, of course, to look at things on a year-to-year basis. Each year we have elite corps. They may not have been an elite for the last 4 or 5 years, and they may not be an all-time elite (like SCV), but they are elite that particular year. Phantom Regiment last year was certainly elite. Very elite! Their resume is not the Cadets, BD, and Cavaliers over the last 20 years, no, but last year they were better. In the last 4 years they have quite a run going (3rd, 2nd, 4th, 1st). One or two more years like this and you could also consider them an elite over the last 5, 6, or 7 years. Time will tell.

There is NO doubt that being a true elite means WINNING! BD, Cadets, and Cavaliers have that. They have the best overall resume from 1990 to now. SCV was this way in the 70s and 80s, along with BD. Star of Indiana had it going for 4 years (1990 - 1993) but then we lost them. When we look at the 70s and 80s we must also take a close look at the Madison Scouts with 2 DCI titles (75 and 88) and many amazing shows and high placements in that time. And they were pretty darn good in the 90s as well. A case could be made that they are an all-time elite, but not a recent elite.

In the last 20 years, however, I believe it is very clear that the recent-history elites are BD, Cadets, and Cavaliers. Time and again they compete for titles, win plenty of shows, and exhibit a high degree of talent, excellence, and amazing show design. This doesn't mean they can't be beat, and it doesn't mean a Current-Season elite, like Phantom last year, should be discounted just because they are not an All-time or Recent-History Elite.

Oh, I am just babbling now. :)

[BRASSO]

If the criteria is " all time history " as mentioned here by a poster, then I would have to modify my list of BD, Cadets, Cavs to include as a 4th Junior Corps, the Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights to " Elite Corps " status. For 2 decades they put up an amazing list of accomplishments and multiple national titles, and did so in an era where there were considerably more national competitors than today for them to beat in order for this Corps to attain all those national titles. For a decade there, they were as dominant a Junior Corps as any Junior Corps has been in any given decade in our activity, rarely falling out of the top 2 or three in placements. It was mostly before my time, but we can't just ignore these accomplishments.

I never saw Cy Young, Bob Feller, or Satchel Page pitch a baseball, or Babe Ruth or Ted Williams hit a baseball either.

But most baseball fans and this sport don't ignore their achievements because it was.... " before my time ".

And we shouldn't as Drum Corps fans and as an activity either.

Edited June 10, 2009 by BRASSO