Why the Blue Devils should've scored higher than 99.05

[soccerguy315]

if you factor visual demand into the musical book, you are essentially getting double credit (or double not credit if it's bad) for visual demand.

is that fair?

edit: I agree with Jeff that if they are going this route, then it should be a two way street with musical demand taken into account for visual also.

But then you have the problem of everyone judging everything.

Edited November 3, 2009 by soccerguy315

[Jeff Ream]

you really arent judging everything tho.

if someone is playing a fast 16th passage in the mellos and are standing still or barely moving, ok thats tough.

but if someone is playing that passage and running at a 4 to 5, that's a hell of a lot tougher.

but I hardly ever see any music bleedover in the visual captions, especially at the field level. upstairs, yes there does have to be some because of the sheets, but they end up being more guard oriented half the time

[glory]

if you factor visual demand into the musical book, you are essentially getting double credit (or double not credit if it's bad) for visual demand.

is that fair?

edit: I agree with Jeff that if they are going this route, then it should be a two way street with musical demand taken into account for visual also.

But then you have the problem of everyone judging everything.

Is it fair? Only to the extent that the visual judge accurately credits musical demand and the music judge accurately credits visual demand. Which is to say, I doubt it is fair.

Among the concerns I have are:

- Does each judge have the expertise to judge the other category appropriately?

- Given their different vantages (field vs. stands), are they in a suitable position to judge the "other" category effectively?

- In the case of judges on the field, is the limited vantage sufficient to assess visual difficulty at all?

- Is demand judged consistently? How dow we reconcile the possibilty that the visual judge and music judge (not to mention GE) are crediting the same instance inconsistently?

HH

[soccerguy315]

if someone is playing a fast 16th passage in the mellos and are standing still or barely moving, ok thats tough.

but if someone is playing that passage and running at a 4 to 5, that's a hell of a lot tougher.

I 100% agree... I'm just thinking that the "hell of a lot tougher" part should show up in the visual scores, since that is the part that is tougher.

glory also brings up excellent concerns.

Edited November 3, 2009 by soccerguy315

[Jeff Ream]

I 100% agree... I'm just thinking that the "hell of a lot tougher" part should show up in the visual scores, since that is the part that is tougher.

glory also brings up excellent concerns.

the music folks have been around long enough they know what is demanding visually. the visual folks SHOULD have the same knowledge. yes they are more watching than listening, but they have ears

[liebot]

This type of OP seems to be a common occurrence…a recent age out declares their class the best ever even if it was not their corps. Yes, drum corps peaked the year *I* aged out, even though I rarely saw full shows or even finals from the stands.

Blue Devils did march the best this year but there was still some dirt – check the rotating boxes back field at the start of the show – a tough maneuver fer sure.

Cavies and BD marched better than Cadets this year. Cadets had the show but it never looked Cadet Clean and I’m not talking about the drum line thing which they were very lucky didn’t drop them to fourth.

Crown had the best hornline this year. 19.6 seems about right although I might have given them a 19.4, its really the spread but best hornline in the past 20 years, doubtful

In retrospect, after a few years, 09 will be remembered as a mediocre years for all but a few corps. I’d be surprised if 10 years from now, 2009 even ranks in the top 3 Blue Devil victories (I kind of doubt it does now).

I stand by my statement that both Crown's hornline and BD's visual performance (insofar as technique is concerned) are some of the best that I have ever seen on the field. Granted I've only seen drum corps shows live since 2003, but Crown's '09 hornline was the best I've seen in person. I'm sure there are others I didn't see in person that are comparable (which is where I mentioned Star 93, BD 94 and 99, etc.) but this was hands down the best line I've seen live. The clarity of each part in the ensemble, the quality of their releases, the way they finished phrases, their consistently nuanced dynamics set them apart from any corps I've seen live. Add to that all the crazy body movement they did while playing, and I'm suitably impressed. Not to mention they were f***ing loud.

As far as BD's marching is concerned, I agree that there was probably some visual dirt, and I don't think anyone will ever compare to Cadets '98 as far as clarity of form and consistency of spacing is concerned, but I was more referring to their technique performance. BD has ALWAYS marched better than everyone else on the field (at least as far back as '94), and I've been blown away in person by their marching other times (03 and 07 are the most memorable), but this was the most I've been impressed by a corps' technique, ever. That coupled with the fact that BD really had some insane moments of demand this year, the fact that they pioneered the usage of the crabstep for the hornline (BLAH BLAH BLAH PHANTOM 93 BLAH BLAH BLAH. . . doing it for one phrase is not the same, and Phantom didn't do it nearly as well), I don't know, my jaw was literally on the ground after they get off the field. There were a couple of moments in '07 where I was equally impressed with the technique clinic they put on, but in 2009 it was pretty much all throughout the show.

I'm not saying that 2009 is THE BEST YEAR EVER or one that's going to be remembered forever or anything of that sort. Clearly 2008 is the year people are going to remember, and aside from Crown, I don't think there were really that many memorable shows throughout the top 12 in 2009. Certainly it will be remembered as the year that Troopers made it back in to finals, but aside from that, I think you're right, there was nothing really special about it. Top to bottom I think 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2008 are all superior. I was just talking about the performance of two corps in very specific captions.

And for the record, I think you're confusing me with another poster that said Cadets 2009 was the hardest show ever. I never said that, and I don't agree with it. Hardest show of 2009? Clearly. But it's got nothing on Cadets 93, Cadets 97, Cavies 02, etc. I wouldn't even put it in my top 20.

Edited November 4, 2009 by TSRTS13

[BlooContraGuy]

Pioneered the crab step in the horn line? They did that to compensate for the idea of moving their feet at 236. Try playing some music while marching traditionally at that tempo, I bet it would sound a hell of a lot worse than if you did the toe-down technique.

[liebot]

Pioneered the crab step in the horn line? They did that to compensate for the idea of moving their feet at 236. Try playing some music while marching traditionally at that tempo, I bet it would sound a hell of a lot worse than if you did the toe-down technique.

And? Why do you think the roll-step was invented?

Sorry, I just don't see your point here. To say it's not innovative because they did it to sound better is a poor argument.

[AZFan]

I think that if a corps arcs up, and plays the most glorious music ever heard on a marching field, obscenely difficult while still technical immaculate, with the most amazing musicality and balance possible, and the percussion is perfect in every way etc etc, there should be no reason for them not to receive perfect 30 in music even if they never move from the their original spots.

it would never happen of course, and they would never make it to finals with a score of under 60 (assuming they did pretty well in music ge (15-18pts) and even if they got minimal points for things like great posture, a nice arc, the drums maybe doing a few things with their sticks, great horns down etc it might come to bout 60), they still should be given the perfect score regardless of visual demand.

[jamesjones0611]

I stand by my statement that both Crown's hornline and BD's visual performance (insofar as technique is concerned) are some of the best that I have ever seen on the field. Granted I've only seen drum corps shows live since 2003, but Crown's '09 hornline was the best I've seen in person. I'm sure there are others I didn't see in person that are comparable (which is where I mentioned Star 93, BD 94 and 99, etc.) but this was hands down the best line I've seen live. The clarity of each part in the ensemble, the quality of their releases, the way they finished phrases, their consistently nuanced dynamics set them apart from any corps I've seen live. Add to that all the crazy body movement they did while playing, and I'm suitably impressed. Not to mention they were f***ing loud.

As far as BD's marching is concerned, I agree that there was probably some visual dirt, and I don't think anyone will ever compare to Cadets '98 as far as clarity of form and consistenty of spacing is concerned, but I was more referring to their technique performance. BD has ALWAYS marched better than everyone else on the field (at least as far back as '94), and I've been blown away in person by their marching other times (03 and 07 are the most memorable), but this was the most I've been impressed by a corps' technique, ever. That coupled with the fact that BD really had some insane moments of demand this year, the fact that they pioneered the usage of the crabstep for the hornline (BLAH BLAH BLAH PHANTOM 93 BLAH BLAH BLAH. . . doing it for one phrase is not the same, and Phantom didn't do it nearly as well), I don't know, my jaw was literally on the ground after they get off the field. There were a couple of moments in '07 where I was equally impressed with the technique clinic they put on, but in 2009 it was pretty much all throughout the show.

I'm not saying that 2009 is THE BEST YEAR EVER or one that's going to be remembered forever or anything of that sort. Clearly 2008 is the year people are going to remember, and aside from Crown, I don't think there were really that many memorable shows throughout the top 12 in 2009. Certainly it will be remembered as the year that Troopers made it back in to finals, but aside from that, I think you're right, there was nothing really special about it. Top to bottom I think 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2008 are all superior. I was just talking about the performance of two corps in very specific captions.

And for the record, I think you're confusing me with another poster that said Cadets 2009 was the hardest show ever. I never said that, and I don't agree with it. Hardest show of 2009? Clearly. But it's got nothing on Cadets 93, Cadets 97, Cavies 02, etc. I wouldn't even put it in my top 20.

/agree.

I tend to agree with pretty much everything you've ever said.