A brief lesson in GE from a barbershop choir

[Bruckner8]

Wow, good job. We're definitely getting more than we bargained for here (lol)! So in a nutshell (bypassing the math for us simpletons), the conventional wisdom is to keep the 3rd low and the 5th just a little high (the ET 5th is about 2 cents too low, right?) - yes? Is the lowered seventh to which you alluded in your first post consistent with the 7th overtone in the series - or am I still uncomprehending, out to lunch?

thanks for sharing your expertise,

Fred O.

Just a clerical issue here: we number the harmonic series from 1 to infinity, with the fundamental = 1. The first OVERTONE would be number 2, etc. B/c of this confusion, I always refer to partials, and NEVER OVERTONES.

So, when you said "7th overtone" you really meant the 7th partial, the open Ab on a Bb horn.

Yup, that's it, and it's 31 cents flat. Really good Bshop Qtets nail it every time.

Then the dominant 9th would be the Open C, 4 cents sharp. (Which shouldn't be a surprise since a C is 2 fifths from a Bb, and you already know that a P5 is 2 cents higher, )

But my main point still is: This group that Boo linked to uses harmony for effect. Drum Corps could, but do not.

[Michael Boo]

Bruckner8:

Can you give us a brief overview of why barbershop quarters strive for a harmonic series that is different than drum corps, and perhaps how drum corps is different from an orchestra with strings?

[Toby]

Hi everyone! This is a great topic. I was a member of the 2007 Westminster Chorus, a barbershop chorus from SoCal. That year, Westminster's uptune was Strike Up the Band. When I joined the group, they asked me to write some "drill" for the chorus to march to because of my marching background. Let's just say that marching backwards up risers while singing is hard...but we did it...and we won!!

Log onto YouTube and search: Westminster Chorus, 2007, Strike Up the Band.

Oh, and the arranger, Aaron Dale, marched Star of Indiana, years...I forget!

Thanks Boo!

Chris, is there anything you don't do?

[84BDsop]

Hi everyone! This is a great topic. I was a member of the 2007 Westminster Chorus, a barbershop chorus from SoCal. That year, Westminster's uptune was Strike Up the Band. When I joined the group, they asked me to write some "drill" for the chorus to march to because of my marching background. Let's just say that marching backwards up risers while singing is hard...but we did it...and we won!!

Log onto YouTube and search: Westminster Chorus, 2007, Strike Up the Band.

Oh, and the arranger, Aaron Dale, marched Star of Indiana, years...I forget!

Thanks Boo!

Nicely done! Is that the one Dave Tautkus is involved in?

[drumno5]

Just a clerical issue here: we number the harmonic series from 1 to infinity, with the fundamental = 1. The first OVERTONE would be number 2, etc. B/c of this confusion, I always refer to partials, and NEVER OVERTONES.

So, when you said "7th overtone" you really meant the 7th partial, the open Ab on a Bb horn.

Yup, that's it, and it's 31 cents flat. Really good Bshop Qtets nail it every time.

Then the dominant 9th would be the Open C, 4 cents sharp. (Which shouldn't be a surprise since a C is 2 fifths from a Bb, and you already know that a P5 is 2 cents higher, )

But my main point still is: This group that Boo linked to uses harmony for effect. Drum Corps could, but do not.

Yeah, 7th partial/overtone - we're talking aobut the same thing. Probably easier to nail down with a vocal quartet than a 75 piece brass ensemble; no?

thanks for the discussion!

Fred O.

[Bruckner8]

Bruckner8:

Can you give us a brief overview of why barbershop quarters strive for a harmonic series that is different than drum corps, and perhaps how drum corps is different from an orchestra with strings?

Bshop Qtets openly talk about, strive for and practice to achieve audible overtones created by this tuning system. There are some drum corps people who "talk the talk" ("expansion of sound") but do not really teach the full ramification of its implication, instead relying on the talent to do it for them. It's the difference between "learning" about lowering the major thirds in a book, and actually being able to hear it, to insist on it, to teach it, to disseminate the "why" to the students. My point: Bshop treats this concept as a core belief; "the sound" IS a function of this tuning. Drum Corps people "know" about it, but do not insist on it, instead choosing other priorities. (And that's fine...I'm getting bored though.)

Drum corps is different than orchestral strings in that strings use vibrato, and therefore the human ear tends to focus on the 50% of time that the strings are in tune. Drum corps has way less room for error when it comes to intonation. Strings rely on the acoustics of halls to help their projection, and to amplify the low end. Drum corps need a higher percentage of low brass (oops, I mean synths...)

If you want to hear amazing overtones from a single note played by 16 tubas, listen to the first 6 seconds of this:

You can hear the entire F major chord, but the octave (Partial 2), 12th (C, Partial 3) and 15th (double-octave, partial 4) are the most prominent. When the Euphs come in on the octave, the 12th and 15th are much louder, and you can hear a bunch more above it. Aren't you convinced someone is playing an octave higher than the Euphs, playing softly?

As the Tubas/Euphs hold it through the chorale, it sounds like the 12th and 15th are also being played, even on the dominant cadences. When they play the first cadence, it sounds like a tuba is 8vb, but that doesn't happen until the last note. That's an "undertone."

Bloo "gets it" on this exercise anyway. Most hornlines do during finals week, on simple stuff like this.

So why not expand it to other aspects of harmony, and not just major triads?

[BMBob]

So why not expand it to other aspects of harmony, and not just major triads?

Lol. Of course we should. That, unfortunately, doesn't change the fact that the minute adjustments needed to make use of this in varied harmonic structures if not easy at all. If only equal tempering would actually create this effect. Then the legions of kids that I've seen come through schools that are being taught to play every note in tune with a tuner would be able to do this all the time. The fact is that very few people who haven't studied extensively really understand how to tune a chord as opposed to a single note.

[Geneva]

In Man of LaMancha, they throw in a little move from Blast at 2:56.

The oscillating file? Great effect! I will never be able to perform this piece again without those newly discovered lyrics, "Don Quixote, lord of the macho...destroyer of evil" zinging through my brain. It certainly adds a new dimension to the piece for me.

[kickhaltsforlife]

Lol. Of course we should. That, unfortunately, doesn't change the fact that the minute adjustments needed to make use of this in varied harmonic structures if not easy at all. If only equal tempering would actually create this effect. Then the legions of kids that I've seen come through schools that are being taught to play every note in tune with a tuner would be able to do this all the time. The fact is that very few people who haven't studied extensively really understand how to tune a chord as opposed to a single note.

I hate seeing people with tuners on their music stands during a rehearsal always aiming for the green. If more people just relied on their ears, and not the tuner. One of the conductors here at my school is really going through a lot of trouble to get people to understand how tuning should work in an ensemble, I wish everyone would get on board with him. The best player in my studio doesn't even understand that you shouldn't be on the green for most notes if you are playing in an ensemble. Intonation and tuning is what holds most players and ensembles back. I believe it is because we spend too much time worrying about if the note is "in the green" or not.

Now playing solo with a piano is a different story... ######. Or even singing in a chorus with piano accompaniment ... ugh.

Edited December 1, 2009 by kickhaltsforlife

[drumno5]

Now playing solo with a piano is a different story... ######. Or even singing in a chorus with piano accompaniment ... ugh.

Or playing with a boatload of fixed-pitch pit equipment, some of it tuned to A-440, some of it tuned to A-442, all of it beat to h*ll under harsh weather conditions. Yikes!

Fred O