Final Rule Proposal Voting Results

[Jerseyboy]

Hmmmm. What if judges start calling out arrangers for the way some of them mutilate the source material?

???????

Its what they do with the source material.

If you want a direct lift of the source material , just listen to the original.

Most corps can not replicate this .

It turns the original piece into a NEW art form , therefore changes must be made to the piece.

I love listening and seeing different mutilation's ( as you say ) of source music.

If I wanted to hear a lift a rhapsody in blue. I can go back to 1975 and listen . its 2010........

[bawker]

If I wanted to hear a lift a rhapsody in blue. I can go back to 1975 and listen . its 2010........

LOL. Such thinly veiled swipes at the Scouts.

For that matter, we could go back to 1991 if we wanted Metheny. . . .but I suppose that carries your analogy too far, no?

[Richard]

Yet, here we are in 2010 with people like Hopkins asking what is missing in DCI today. I would say try starting what drum corps has lost that makes it drum corps and work your way from there. The answer is sitting there, if you are willing to take the shades off for 5 minutes.

What is "what drum corps has lost that makes it drum corps" exactly? G Bugles? Symmetrical drill? Marching mallet instruments? High-stepping? Dropspin-only colorguard? To me, a modern drum corps fan, those things are not "what makes it drum corps". If those elements were all included in a show today, I wouldn't find it very entertaining. What defined drum corps then does not define it now. I understand you don't like this. But you often talk as if everyone shares your viewpoint. What is missing to you from drum corps today is not what is missing to me from drum corps today, so that doesn't make your solution a very effective one in my eyes.

Way to rewrite history.

Let's try to remember what really happened. The rule change was not the "everybody switch to Bb/F change"....it was the "any-key brass change". Proposal language specifically declared that no competitive preference for any particular key was being declared. Are you saying that the proposal was disingenuous?

You mean the "perceived opportunity" to score better?

What dreamworld do you live in? Fact is, corps use amps, electronic instruments and Bb/F brass because the judging community has a tangible preference for those devices, and any instructor that doesn't think (or at least act) in concert with those judging preferences will see lower scores as a result.

Remember how Pioneer was told they'd be "last in brass" as long as they stuck with G horns? Well, they switched to Bb/F, and now they are no longer last in brass.

Given that every corps grounds their pit, and every corps has discarded the color pre and sideline entry/exit since rules permitted it, you are undercutting your own argument with those examples.

You and I have had this argument before and you continue to misconstrue facts to suit your side. You say that Pioneer was told they'd be last in brass on Gs as if it was said by Dan Acheson and decreed in official press release by DCI. A judge said that. Ok. Yes, judges are supposed to adjudicate according to the criteria set forth by DCI, but humans (even judges) are imperfect. Also, you neglect to mention that Pioneer was no longer last in MANY captions this past year. Were they not last in drums because they switched to Bb horns? That question is as ridiculous as your assertion that Pioneer was 21st in brass instead of 22nd because they switched to Bb.

That isn't even mentioning other factors like it's more difficult to make a G bugle sound good than it is to make Bb/F horn sound good for an inexperienced player. I'm betting Pioneer has a decent number of inexperienced players, so in that sense, staying on G was adversely impacting their score whereas being on Bb might help alleviate some of the problems they were encountering.

Oh, and Spartans won Division II in 2007 on G bugles against almost strictly Bb competition. They switched to Bb the next year and didn’t make finals. There is no correlation here.

Lastly, can you provide any reasons why a corps would want to march their pit or do the whole sideline entry/exit thing? Corps do what makes sense for them, many of these rules just remove some unreasonable constraints and then you act like they’re mandates because all corps take advantage of the opportunities new rules provide.

I wouldn’t be so bent out of shape about this post if you presented your side of the argument more fairly. Jeff, for example, often disagrees with my perspective on drum corps but I can’t refute anything he says because he makes his case clearly and fairly. I understand where he’s coming from a lot of the time, and you, much like Mello Dude, just come off as a conspiracy theorist that hates DCI. I’m not trying to attack you, I’m just trying to point out the perception your posts create in my mind because of the way you state your viewpoint, not because of your viewpoint itself.

Here's novel concept: Why not just design a show that makes sense? If you have to explain it, it's a bad design. Considering the amount of arranging that takes place to squeeze a drum corps show into the alloted time, previewing source material is a big waste of time. When you think about the slicing and dicing going on...heck, there's been too many shows where I was waiting to hear something listed in the program and never "heard" it because it was buried in hack and slash. Besides, where's the source material for "Wayne Downey's Greatest Brass Riffs", which can make up more of a BD show than the actual source music?

Hmmmm. What if judges start calling out arrangers for the way some of them mutilate the source material?

I don’t understand the complaints about modern arranging. Modern corps put out an interpretation of the source material, not a transcription. If you want to hear the source material, then listen to the source material (EDIT - ninja'd by FanofNight). Why would I want to hear West Side Story transcribed for brass and percussion when I could get a reinterpretation of it? I thought The Cadets musical package was brilliant this past year, as they were able to extract segments of WSS that highlighted their show concept and build on them. Sure, they had some forced transitions (notably to ‘America’), but they also had some very nicely done moments. This is getting pretty far off topic but a lot of what people describe as ‘hummable melodies’ is often due to repetition of a musical statement or familiarity with the source material. MacArthur Park is a boring, repetitive song with cheesy modulation. A straight transcription of that piece is not something I want to hear on the field. Most pop music is relatively repetitive which is why I do not enjoy a lot of it. That’s my opinion, and I’m as entitled to it as those out there clamoring for music to be what it was back in the day.

My biggest gripe is the 25 or so people who speak for drum corps fans everywhere. You’re all more than welcome to hate modern day drum corps arranging. But when people on DCP speak as if the entire finals audience agrees with their sentiments it bothers me. You’re misrepresenting my tastes, at the very least.

Ok, I’m done ranting.

[Mello Dude]

Richard wrote:

What is "what drum corps has lost that makes it drum corps" exactly? G Bugles? Symmetrical drill? Marching mallet instruments? High-stepping? Dropspin-only colorguard? To me, a modern drum corps fan, those things are not "what makes it drum corps". If those elements were all included in a show today, I wouldn't find it very entertaining. What defined drum corps then does not define it now. I understand you don't like this. But you often talk as if everyone shares your viewpoint. What is missing to you from drum corps today is not what is missing to me from drum corps today, so that doesn't make your solution a very effective one in my eyes.

You forgot, massive (and exciting) wall of sound (helped mostly due to the (lost) G bugle), Olympic style retreats, acoustic music rather than "synthesized" and amped music,..etc. No, I am not the vocal minority that are here on a daily basis making sure less people attend every year. I don't pretend to think YOU represent my viewpoint. I do however understand and know what is accessible and good to the vast majority vs good select few that like to espouse their great knowledge of knowing what is better; no disrespect, but even Hopkins is starting to see the light and that is rather telling.

[Mello Dude]

LOL. Such thinly veiled swipes at the Scouts.

For that matter, we could go back to 1991 if we wanted Metheny. . . .but I suppose that carries your analogy too far, no?

Yeah I saw that too. Well, at least THIS year when 5 minutes go by AFTER their show you will be able to hum a lick from it.

[Jeff Ream]

Perhaps amplified vocals would be a better comparison.

Corps will use it when they think it will add to their show

that's about the only one the non mandatory rule has backed up, but I think voiceovers will become more prevalent

[Jeff Ream]

. . .that would be freaking awesome.

it would be, but since John called out the accountability factor, I feel this is an issue along those lines too....as well as balance issues relating to electronics

[Jeff Ream]

???????

Its what they do with the source material.

If you want a direct lift of the source material , just listen to the original.

Most corps can not replicate this .

It turns the original piece into a NEW art form , therefore changes must be made to the piece.

I love listening and seeing different mutilation's ( as you say ) of source music.

If I wanted to hear a lift a rhapsody in blue. I can go back to 1975 and listen . its 2010........

or Pat Metheny no?

[Richard]

No, I am not the vocal minority that are here on a daily basis making sure less people attend every year. I don't pretend to think YOU represent my viewpoint. I do however understand and know what is accessible and good to the vast majority vs good select few that like to espouse their great knowledge of knowing what is better; no disrespect, but even Hopkins is starting to see the light and that is rather telling.

I'm very confused by the "making sure less people attend every year" statement. Who on DCP is doing this? Or even has the power to "make sure" the audience diminishes?

And I don't understand how you can claim to "know what is accessible and good to the vast majority". Have you done market research? Please provide it if you have, otherwise, how can you back up a statement like that?

I'm not going to sit here and claim that all is right in the world of drum corps, but I think it's equally ridiculous to continue with the whole "the sky is falling" routine just because YOU don't like the way things are right now. Sheesh.

[Jeff Ream]

What is "what drum corps has lost that makes it drum corps" exactly? G Bugles? Symmetrical drill? Marching mallet instruments? High-stepping? Dropspin-only colorguard? To me, a modern drum corps fan, those things are not "what makes it drum corps". If those elements were all included in a show today, I wouldn't find it very entertaining. What defined drum corps then does not define it now. I understand you don't like this. But you often talk as if everyone shares your viewpoint. What is missing to you from drum corps today is not what is missing to me from drum corps today, so that doesn't make your solution a very effective one in my eyes.

You and I have had this argument before and you continue to misconstrue facts to suit your side. You say that Pioneer was told they'd be last in brass on Gs as if it was said by Dan Acheson and decreed in official press release by DCI. A judge said that. Ok. Yes, judges are supposed to adjudicate according to the criteria set forth by DCI, but humans (even judges) are imperfect. Also, you neglect to mention that Pioneer was no longer last in MANY captions this past year. Were they not last in drums because they switched to Bb horns? That question is as ridiculous as your assertion that Pioneer was 21st in brass instead of 22nd because they switched to Bb.

That isn't even mentioning other factors like it's more difficult to make a G bugle sound good than it is to make Bb/F horn sound good for an inexperienced player. I'm betting Pioneer has a decent number of inexperienced players, so in that sense, staying on G was adversely impacting their score whereas being on Bb might help alleviate some of the problems they were encountering.

Oh, and Spartans won Division II in 2007 on G bugles against almost strictly Bb competition. They switched to Bb the next year and didn't make finals. There is no correlation here.

Lastly, can you provide any reasons why a corps would want to march their pit or do the whole sideline entry/exit thing? Corps do what makes sense for them, many of these rules just remove some unreasonable constraints and then you act like they're mandates because all corps take advantage of the opportunities new rules provide.

I wouldn't be so bent out of shape about this post if you presented your side of the argument more fairly. Jeff, for example, often disagrees with my perspective on drum corps but I can't refute anything he says because he makes his case clearly and fairly. I understand where he's coming from a lot of the time, and you, much like Mello Dude, just come off as a conspiracy theorist that hates DCI. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to point out the perception your posts create in my mind because of the way you state your viewpoint, not because of your viewpoint itself.

I don't understand the complaints about modern arranging. Modern corps put out an interpretation of the source material, not a transcription. If you want to hear the source material, then listen to the source material (EDIT - ninja'd by FanofNight). Why would I want to hear West Side Story transcribed for brass and percussion when I could get a reinterpretation of it? I thought The Cadets musical package was brilliant this past year, as they were able to extract segments of WSS that highlighted their show concept and build on them. Sure, they had some forced transitions (notably to 'America'), but they also had some very nicely done moments. This is getting pretty far off topic but a lot of what people describe as 'hummable melodies' is often due to repetition of a musical statement or familiarity with the source material. MacArthur Park is a boring, repetitive song with cheesy modulation. A straight transcription of that piece is not something I want to hear on the field. Most pop music is relatively repetitive which is why I do not enjoy a lot of it. That's my opinion, and I'm as entitled to it as those out there clamoring for music to be what it was back in the day.

My biggest gripe is the 25 or so people who speak for drum corps fans everywhere. You're all more than welcome to hate modern day drum corps arranging. But when people on DCP speak as if the entire finals audience agrees with their sentiments it bothers me. You're misrepresenting my tastes, at the very least.

Ok, I'm done ranting.

thanks for the love. However, I speak for me, unless I am supporting what others have told me...and many people I talk to complain about the arrangements today.

And...still think in terms of the "you dont have to use it" BS trotted out with every new change....perception is reality. you dont use it, you suffer on the sheets