Low-End Synth

[Jeff Ream]

As per usual, the peanut gallery is knee-jerking and drum corps' are taking things to the extreme.

1. Drum corps should be using the synth in a more subtle way. Just another "color" on the musical pallet (not a featured caption, in my opinion). It really is a great effect when the low synths are "felt" more than they are heard. If I were them, I would turn a speaker toward the field and use it as a reference pitch and the audience would hear the residual sound in arena anyways (if you just want to augment your brass sound). I was at Oswego last night and Madison used heavy amounts of low synth with their 20+ contras. It was wayyyy too much. Balance in all things. By-the-way, please pick a sound with overtones similar to brass.

Secondly, corps' haven't figured out how to balance them with the music on the field quiet yet. The speakers are too directional and the sound always feels like it's in front of the corps. Perhaps they're balancing them for the press box - good for score, bad for anyone not near the press box. Another thing they have to figure out is how the speakers are projecting compared to the corps. Of course, this can depend on temperature, barometric pressure, speakers, and timbre of the sounds you are amplifying. That's why I think it's a good idea to fit them "in" your texture, and not on "top."

2. You guys on here poo-pooing synths are just as bad. You're on the other extreme. True, if drum corps used it in a more musical way it would be more enjoyable. But in any field (mine is music) we enjoy using new technology and seeing what we can do with it. Any of you arm-chair-quarterbacks use a pager any more? Car phone? Why not!?!? Well, if a rotary telephone was good enough for US President Rutherford B. Hayes, it should be good enough for you. Or do you hate America? (By-the-by, that's how you come across in all this.)

Any new technology takes a while to learn. It's still in the infant stage - learning to crawl, walk, etc. If the rules in DCI weren't so rigid to begin with, gradually allowing different things on the field (instead of a "free market" approach), maybe we wouldn't have these transitional periods. But you can't deny a corps right to stay competitive; their very survival depends on it.

You hear that, corps-that-have-no-idea-what-you're-doing-with-electronics? YOUR survival.

we've been told since amps were proposed that these staff members had oodles of experience with this stuff from their experience in the band world.

here we are, season 7 of amps, and we still have balance issues...even at finals....of anything plugged in.

I'd say 7 years is long enough to figure out how to make it work.

[Stu]

Stu, how many people are like you and will still go, and how many will no longer go? I think a point here is......dci doesn't know, hasn't developed a way to figure it out (a "metric" as we say in the business....hate that word, but I digress), and.... doesn't appear to care (?)...

There is a way to gauge how many are like me; just poll those in the stands at shows; there is also a way to poll how many in the stands who do not like the synths and might not return to the next show. But, there is really no way to gauge how many people who are not actually at the show because there is no way to poll people who are are absent, and no way to contact those who used to attend but now do not.

And speaking of polling; the way the questions are asked in this thread (Used More, Like How it Used, Indifferent, Used Less) are all people who do not mind synths being used "at least part of the time". So the way it stands right now, 110 people say it should never be used, and 103 people say they do not mind it being used at least part of the time. That is a statistical dead heat with the slight nod going to not using them. So, even the people here on DCP are real close to 50 / 50 on their use at some capacity.

By the way, my beef with electronics are these: a) They benefit the score when done properly, but they do not detract from the score when they malfunction; and b) an adult over the age of 22 is allowed to run the sound board; and since the electronics do positively effect the outcome score in a live situation, a non corps member Adult is effecting the outcome of the corps performance "during the actual competition".

Edited July 3, 2010 by Stu

[En929]

So at the time of me posting this, only 2 out of 42 people like the use of low-end synth. So why do almost all of the corps use it? Why do the staffs like it and think it makes the corps sound better if this huge of a majority is against it? Do they really think it sounds better? Do they really think the fans do not notice?

Can anyone provide answers to these questions?

....and you have to admit that this is a little different than other controversial issues such as voice, amped pits, multi-key brass, electronics in general, dancing hornlines, etc..... All of those issues I just mentioned may be unpopular, and some even a majority may dislike.... but no where to the extent of the almost universal disdain like low-end synth gets. Why is there such a disconnect between the fans on DCP and the staffs and judges?

I might be in the minority here, but I think sythesizers, etc. sound good. As long as they keep the balance and don't overdo it, then I welcome them. I think they add to the show and open up venues for creativity and innovation. My idea is, if some drum corps prefer not to use them, then they don't have to. I think the rule is in place in case there are drum corps that would like to use them and to keep the mere choice there.

Edited July 3, 2010 by En929

[hammondbrass]

Let's compare this to marching bands. How about college marching bands? Major college marching bands are viewed by significantly larger audiences than drum corps. I have yet to see a big ten band, for example, that used narration, amps, synths, in a way similar to drum corps. Heck, UW-Madison doesn't even have a color guard. These bands, for the most part, are loved by their audiences. So....what gives? They aren't "taking it to the next level" - they are loved in Large part due to their traditions.

Drum corps provides a different function. If you want cutting edge (and drum corps has always been cutting edge compared to marching band/college. Even when you marched.) look to Drum Corps. If you want so-called tradition, look to college marching bands. Just because most people drive Ford Tauruses, doesn't mean that companies like Ferrari should cease to exist.

That isn't to mean that I think that all of these G7 corps are secret geniuses looking into a crystal ball and reading chicken bones. They don't know what the next "big" thing is going to be either. They're just scared and scrambling to keep current and up-with-the-times. Did you predict that 3D would make a resurgence in Movies, video games, and possibly TV? I sure as h-ell didn't. It's only because Avatar became so big it's all hyped right now. I, personally, have no problem with electronics but I think it's being over-hyped right now - it's a new toy to play with. It's kinda like survival of the fittest. Things that work, corps will use. Those that don't catch on fade away. Luckily the spinning snare drummer died away with, apparently, every Canadian corps it seems.

I would also question just how much traditions have held true in college bands over the years. You don't think they've evolved? I always see the shiniest set of battery instruments with mylar heads every year. I've also seen a lot of Teal Sound-esque "show bands" (with synths, guitars, mics, and singing) in college. It's actually kinda the norm. When I was at FSU (though I never marched chiefs), they were cracking down on a lot of "traditional" hazing. Some things actually change for the better.

Heck, UW-Madison doesn't even have a color guard.

I would say not having a color guard goes against tradition. It's probably one of the oldest

.

they are loved in Large part due to their traditions.

They are loved in Large [sic] part because listening to them while consuming hot dogs and beer doesn't anger the masses while they wait for the second half to start. College marching bands are like those little fish that clean the shark. The sharks just barely tolerate them and the fish get a little nibble of food from between their teeth and a 2 second clip on ESPN 3 right before they cut to a beer commercial. And listen, just like a kingdom, every college wants the biggest "court" of musicians they have to show their might. (back in the day, how many trumpet players a king had was kind of a measuring stick of his country's power)

Anyways, this all just seems like futile b-itching. I think it's a pretty low priority in the wake of G7. Direct your anger to that. If you want, why don't you guys call a director and voice your concerns:

Blue Devils...................925-689-2918 David Gibbs

Bluecoats.....................330-433-9115 David Glasgow

The Cadets...................610-821-0345 George Hopkins

Carolina Crown.............803-547-2270 Kevin Smith

The Cavaliers...............847-685-8412 Adolph DeGrauwe

Phantom Regiment........815-226-2835 Rick Valenzuela

Santa Clara Vanguard....408-727-5532 Jeff Fiedler

[hammondbrass]

That's just it; in film scores, tv shows etc EVERY INSTRUMENT is mic'd. We aren't hearing acoustic brass with mic'd electronic garbage spread over the top. For me, mixing electronic and acoustic sounds is a horrible clash that completely destroys a live show. Either go all acoustic or have a mic on every horn out there, mixing the two IMO is like nails on a chalk board.

Film orchestras aren't mic'd for amplification or sound reinforcement. Rather, for recording. This is a big distinction and two separate fields of the discipline. The problem is that DCI labels itself as the greatest thing that happened to music with virtuosic wunderkind putting out flawless shows. There is a cognitive dissonance when you're at a LIVE show and it doesn't sound like it does on the mastered CD/DVD from finals. It's still early in the season - where is the outrage for how dirty their feet are? It's still a while to finals with tweeking. Trust me, it can be done tastefully and add much effect. I think (from what I've seen) the Cavies have done the best job so far. Though I might have a wider pallet of acceptable sounds in my ear.

As Pat Metheny (the master of mixing acoustic/electronic and hero to all DCI superfans) said, "whether they’re 'developed and performed acoustically or otherwise, with a ten-dollar instrument or sophisticated computer system, good notes are good notes.' And that, of course, is the primary way to hear, and to evaluate, the five compositions he has written for his Orchestrion."

It's the corps themselves that are in charge of writing the good notes. Don't take it out on the equipment.

[84skyrydr]

Ok; out of the 21 people at the Dubuque show that were polled stating that they did not like the synth, how many of them are like you and will never ever again attend a DCI show? My guess is that all 21 would go again; and if one or two of them did not, it would be for many other reasons than they just do not like the synth or do not like the direction DCI is going. Also, how do you know a lot of people are currently refusing to go to shows because they, like you, do not like the direction DCI is going? Attendance at various paid entertainmet events is based more on economics than boycotting. Do I personally like the electronics and synths in DCI? Nope. Did I like the microphoned talking in the Cadets 2009 show? Nope. Will I still go see DCI shows because I am entertained by the activity? Yep.

You are still completely out of context with the number. Second, attendance figures are not being released, WHY? If everything is going up then you would brag about all the new attendance right? I don't now know or will ever know if people are actually boycotting. I think IMO that they aren't boycotting, they are just done. Look up at the poll results of people that care enough about drum corps to chat on these threads and see how many say synths are a benefit versus a liability to the sound produced. I didn't make those numbers up, they are at the top of the page and the whole reason for the 14 pages of dialogue. Ignore it all you want. Personally I am hoping the G7 do go their seperate ways and what is left goes back to drum corps without all the gadgets. Another point to a different reply is when was it really drum corps? That is completely subjective. It is gonna be real only when the person feels it is relevant to the way they learned it. Doesn't make any answer right or wrong. I just get tired of the children who cry foul when former donors ( read: lots of cash to several corps ) decide to stop donating to something that does not relate to them. We are called greedy and selfish, yet those same children don't want to be called greedy when they keep asking for more and more toys. When will enough be enough? Oh right, when it is finally NOT DISCERNABLE from BAND.

Edited July 3, 2010 by 84skyrydr

[84skyrydr]

There is a way to gauge how many are like me; just poll those in the stands at shows; there is also a way to poll how many in the stands who do not like the synths and might not return to the next show. But, there is really no way to gauge how many people who are not actually at the show because there is no way to poll people who are are absent, and no way to contact those who used to attend but now do not.

And speaking of polling; the way the questions are asked in this thread (Used More, Like How it Used, Indifferent, Used Less) are all people who do not mind synths being used "at least part of the time". So the way it stands right now, 110 people say it should never be used, and 103 people say they do not mind it being used at least part of the time. That is a statistical dead heat with the slight nod going to not using them. So, even the people here on DCP are real close to 50 / 50 on their use at some capacity.

By the way, my beef with electronics are these: a) They benefit the score when done properly, but they do not detract from the score when they malfunction; and b) an adult over the age of 22 is allowed to run the sound board; and since the electronics do positively effect the outcome score in a live situation, a non corps member Adult is effecting the outcome of the corps performance "during the actual competition".

That is a nice scew on the reading of the poll numbers. You like to read it your way. Here is my way of reading it. 172 people want it LESS ( doesn't imply they enjoy it at all ) or NEVER ( obviously HATE it ), 26 want it more ( how many corps directors are their? ) and 19 ( all judges ) could care less. Not quite the 50/50 vision you have. So the totals should read 172 for it, to 45 against it.

Edited July 3, 2010 by 84skyrydr

[Piper]

I have an electronic organ sitting 20 feet away from me as we speak. Even a dumb snare drummer like me can tweak that sucker to make myself sound like Billy Joel, but it's fake as a $3 bill and everybody knows it.

[HockeyDad]

Drum corps provides a different function. If you want cutting edge (and drum corps has always been cutting edge compared to marching band/college. Even when you marched.) look to Drum Corps. If you want so-called tradition, look to college marching bands. Just because most people drive Ford Tauruses, doesn't mean that companies like Ferrari should cease to exist.

I just don't see using synths as "cutting edge" in any way. You have a lot of very talented musicians who practice insanely long hours........only to be drowned out by a synthesizer. How is that cutting edge? And, as Jeff stated, how many more years will these talented staffs need to get the balance issues fixed. It's been 7 years already, how many more will be needed?

If you can't hear Madison's 20 contras because the synth is doubling the contra line........ something's messed up IMO.

And, if you think drum corps is Ferrari to marching bands Taurus, I think we have an inflated sense of what drum corps is. You also state that college crowds barely tolerate the marching band as they swill their beer and hot dogs at half time. You apparently never witnessed the 5th quarter at Camp Randall.

[BRASSO]

There is a way to gauge how many are like me; just poll those in the stands at shows; there is also a way to poll how many in the stands who do not like the synths and might not return to the next show. But, there is really no way to gauge how many people who are not actually at the show because there is no way to poll people who are are absent, and no way to contact those who used to attend but now do not.

And speaking of polling; the way the questions are asked in this thread (Used More, Like How it Used, Indifferent, Used Less) are all people who do not mind synths being used "at least part of the time". So the way it stands right now, 110 people say it should never be used, and 103 people say they do not mind it being used at least part of the time. That is a statistical dead heat with the slight nod going to not using them. So, even the people here on DCP are real close to 50 / 50 on their use at some capacity.

By the way, my beef with electronics are these: a) They benefit the score when done properly, but they do not detract from the score when they malfunction; and b) an adult over the age of 22 is allowed to run the sound board; and since the electronics do positively effect the outcome score in a live situation, a non corps member Adult is effecting the outcome of the corps performance "during the actual competition".

I could be wrong, but I 'd put the overwhelming vast majority of long time fans in the activity that have left following the activity in the " No"camp for the introduction of synthetically produced sounds in Drum Corps Competition. We'll never really know for certain, but I WOULD bet the farm that most would be decidely and virulently "no " on the use. The key now for the Drum Corps activity is to replace these fans with those who support the use of artificially produced sounds in judged Drum Corps competitions. The book is out on that right now in it's ability to do so. Time will tell.