Isn't It Time to Revamp the Judging System?

[perc2100]

I think I'm good letting the corps staff members, directors, administrators, and DCI judges continue to make judging decisions: let the guys in the trenches worry about scores.

Really, I don't care much anymore who wins or loses, and I like who I like regardless of placement. If any fan (not a marching member, staff member, director) is getting so caught up with scores that they get all upset over placement, take a deep breath and remember that there's nothing we can do other than like stuff, or dislike stuff. Support who you like with loud applause, ignore what you don't: scores don't really matter.

[AlexL]

scores don't really matter.

Except for the fact that a lot of money rides on those scores.

[perc2100]

how would you define audience effect other than audience reaction? based on what you say above, it's still the same thing.

the problem with GE is, that what fans think is GE, and what is on the sheets do not coincide.

I dont have a copy of DCI's GE sheets, so let's use WGI's percussion GE sheet

MUSIC EFFECT

Communication

how do you translate that to the crowd?

Musicianship

ok that can translate somewhat...but often the "gimmicks or effects" get credit over the cleanliness

Creativity

incredibly subjective. what you may find creative, I may not, and the guy next to us may find it totally different yet

Blend and Balance

if anything can get to the crowd here, it's bad blend and balance

Excellence as relate to Effect

what we may define as excellent, others may not

Expression

what you may find beautiful I may find hideous

Idiomatic Interpretation

some people love the sytle of jazz BD plays now...or well, the arrangment of it. others detest it. so how does audience appeal fit into this

OVERALL EFFECT

communication...so the corps that swaggers the best or implores the fans to give it up score well here?

Audio/Visual Coordination

what some people think lines up well, others don't.

Imagination/Creativity.

please opinions vary so widely on this even in indoor

Pacing and Continuity

to be honest, I doubt the average fan even thinks about this

Impact/Resolution

some people want every tune to end loud. some fans love soft endings. Some fans love some of each.

Range of Effects:

again, depends on what you the fan likes.

Entertainment

hell we can't even agree on that on DCP, how can you get a stadium full of people to agree?

I agree: leave the judging to the judges. Fans can show their approval with cheers and their disapproval with silence. Leave the adjudication to the professionals

[perc2100]

Except for the fact that a lot of money rides on those scores.

True, but for the average person who is on DCP during a drum corps tour (i.e. us), scores don't really matter. If my favorite show this year is Blue Knights, and they are underscored IMO, as long as I like them it doesn't really matter where they score. While those of us alumni of the activity have competitiveness ingrained from us when we marched (at least some of us: I know some corps don't roll like that), after we age-out, stop competing or taking any part in the competitive aspect of the activity scores are fairly meaningless.

[AlexL]

True, but for the average person who is on DCP during a drum corps tour (i.e. us), scores don't really matter. If my favorite show this year is Blue Knights, and they are underscored IMO, as long as I like them it doesn't really matter where they score. While those of us alumni of the activity have competitiveness ingrained from us when we marched (at least some of us: I know some corps don't roll like that), after we age-out, stop competing or taking any part in the competitive aspect of the activity scores are fairly meaningless.

Yeah. I enjoy it sometimes though. Even though the scores can be so meaningless from show to show, it can be fun to play with and analyze the numbers. If nothing else, its something to follow during the period between college basketball ending and football beginning, other than baseball, which kinda sucks.

[perc2100]

Yeah. I enjoy it sometimes though. Even though the scores can be so meaningless from show to show, it can be fun to play with and analyze the numbers. If nothing else, its something to follow during the period between college basketball ending and football beginning, other than baseball, which kinda sucks.

Ooo...

You had me until that last point there

[Michael Boo]

If it were up to me, I would add a judge to judge the whole show from a single perspective. This judge would concentrate on things like musical staging. Musical and stylistic continuity. How does the visual package support the musical package, ect.

I've judged marching band shows that utilized such a judge, except they were for comments only...no score. Personally, I think it would be a great idea. How does everything tie together?

The audience may not know which captions are scoring the best and why, but they do generally know which shows just plain work because all elements work together.

[Michael Boo]

So it wasn't all about saving money. Interesting. I still think having the field judges on in the early part of the saving is as important, so they know where to improve right away, as far as technicals go. But, that's my opinion.

Well...sort of. But as I mentioned, giving the national judges exposure to all or most of the corps early on would not be possible without saving some money somewhere.

[MikeD]

I have been thinking that it's been quite a long time since we have had a major change in the judging system, as set forth by DCI. I am thinking it is time to change, revamp, alter how a drum corps show is judged these days.

Why? Well, the activity has really changed since the last time it was drastically changed, which was '83-'84? There was also years later when the M&M caption was change to visual, which basically gave equal weight to visual and music. Those are the two major changes I remember off the top of my head. These changes were basically made to keep up with where the activity was heading. Obviously, the drum corps activity has changed drastically again since the early 90's and I feel it's time to tweak the current system again. I feel now with the corps in the top 12 so competitive and even beyond, there needs to be changes made to better clarify who the best corps really are. I am interested in folks feel the same and if so, what changes you would all make, as well. I am brainstorming, so some of these may seem a bit far-fetched. Bare with me.

Here are some of my suggestions:

1. Why are drum corps shows judged 3 different ways during the summer? It makes no sense. We start out with a slimmed down 5 judge panel. Then we enter the 8 judge panel, for most of July. Then, during championships, we have the double panel judging system. Pick one system and stick with it. The double panel I am totally against. For example, does baseball have 2 home plate umpires to call balls and strikes during the World Series? Does Figure skating double up their panels?

Makes sense the way it is to me, esp in these days of reducing costs. The double panel at champs reduces the impact of one particular person, also a good thing at the biggest show of the year.

2. I feel there needs to be some form of a modified or "new age""tic" system brought back into the activity. With the corps so close and more difficult for the judges to score (leaving room, for example), I feel there needs to be more of a straight forward system, that is much clearer and not so much dependent solely on opinion (yes, there is always opinion, and that is why there are judges). The design of the shows, to say the least, has progressed incredibly far, that we can now bring the "tic" back (in not the same exact form), without having to worry about the shows becoming safer, from a design standpoint or watered down. There needs to be more risk vs. reward. Sort of like figure skating, that would be a good place to start.

Tics were just as subjective as buildup, and less accurate a gauge of the best performing percussion section. The 'risk' should be factored into the performance score, of course. The best performing line is the line that plays the most the best.

3. How should we choose a winner of championships? In other words, why are caption awards tallied over the 3 days of championships, while the actual winning corps is only tallied on finals night? Be consistent and choose one way all the same or the other way. Now say you are in support of the double panels for championships. Wouldn't it be just about the same if we eliminated the double panels and choose the champions just like the captions (on a 3-night aggregate)?

I like the double panel idea, but I think I'd prefer the 'best' to be based on the finals performance, not an aggregate.

4. Should we change how points are weighted in the scoring captions? I feel there are too many points in the GE caption and that it should break down to more of a 30-35-35 or 30-30-40 system. GE is the most subjective caption and is also the prime example used by George Hopkins to bring in the double panel judging panel. I feel performance and technical should have the most weight.

When I marched the World Open had 30 points for GE, while VFW Nats had only 10. The best corps won each time.

I prefer a balance. What exists today provides that just fine.

If I could wave a magic wand, I'd want one GE brass and one GE percussion, as it used to be, plus GE visual of course. Add one overall GE judge to consider the entire show..music and visual in total.

[MikeD]

I agree with you on that. But, why are we seeing 98-99 scores consistently? Maybe change it to composition vs. achievement vs. errors.

Because the corps are good?

Why does the absolute number matter so much? It's the rank and rating that makes the most difference.