Pioneer vs. ?

[bhs alumni]

There are a few things I could see that would put them continually in low standing. One is resistance to change. From what I could tell they are all good people ($1 to DP) but some are stuck in an old mind set. The way drum corps are taught and run nowadays has changed and as some have already pointed out, they aren’t willing to “play the DCI game.” Now in my case, I don’t mean they should run out and go all electronics or expand to a worldwide recruiting base, but a difference in thought at the top could do them some good. First of all music: Irish, lose it. I understand staying with tradition and sense or corps style, but since when does the word Pioneer specifically mean Irish?

The Merriam-Webster dictionary entry for “pioneer”:

1: a member of a military unit usually of construction engineers

2 a: a person or group that originates or helps open up a new line of thought or activity or a new method or technical development

b: one of the first to settle in a territory

3: a plant or animal capable of establishing itself in a bare, barren, or open area and initiating an ecological cycle.

So there you go, you can keep the name Pioneer but look into other avenues of music. Possibilities could include military music, or new music, ala “being the first” or traditional folk music of “first settlers” but from different cultures. That being said, there can definitely be a way to create more accessible shows including Irish music that isn’t so folksy and traditional. It has been said time and time again on these boards that there is a huge segment of Irish music that can be used that could at least keep the concept but would explore more updated sounds.

Another area of opportunity is a mind set of understanding who you are. It’s admirable to strive to be the best, but focus on getting out of last place (congrats to them for doing it for the first time in a few years), instead of believing you have to compete with the Blue Devils. In a horn rehearsal once, instead of working on basic technique there was more focus on volume and the reasoning was “we have to compete with BD.” With proper technique comes volume, and then you can work on expanding it later. The corps switched from G to Bb, which from a competitive standpoint is a plus (heard of a judges tape that said ‘if you want to be competitive, you need to switch’). By taking a proper approach and realizing it’s not a one-year process, they can achieve great things, but by thinking each year that it’s all going to fall into place immediately is naïve.

The best idea in my eyes would be bring in a program consultant, someone with a great understanding of drum corps as a whole, to evaluate the entire organization and together create a five- or ten-year plan for growth and development. The corps will be around for a long time and that’s a good thing, but if they wish to increase their perception of competitiveness, there needs to be a lot of changes that I just don’t see coming.

[mvbailey12]

I like all of the input, thank you!

I am curious, though, as to why a corps like Blue Stars or Troopers, can be out and then come back even stronger than ever compared to a corps tht continues to field every year.

I know, there is the philosophies and such, but what makes a group like Blue Stars or Troop so much "better" for a lack of a term than Pio? Is it because of the talent pool that they are going after? Since they are not really local corps anymore, like most World Class?

We know that there is plenty of talent on Pio, but do Blue Stars have an "it" factor? Is it the age of the students?

I have heard instructors, show design, tradition (Irish), but I am really surprised to see a group, let's say Troopers, come back and do fairly well. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Also, do some corps have a "slotted" place? Would you ever expect Cavies or BD or Phantom to be battling with Mandarins or Cascades or Pioneer for position?

How can Mandarins be better, since they have about the same numbers each year and they play pretty much the same style music! Anyone for a taiko drum?

[geluf]

Success breeds success, in general. Corps that place well tend to end up with larger talent pools at try-outs as well.

No "slotting" either.

Heck, Phantom Regiment is a great example. They WON in 2008, and then dropped to 9th last year. Still top 12, sure, but that's a pretty astronomical fall.

[3rd Glasgow BB]

I've always looked upon Pioneer as being quaint, they remind me of a bygone drum corps era.

The ability to evolve without losing their identity seems to be what they're missing.... imo. Perhaps it's time to let the whole Irish thing take a back seat and take a risk or two.... never forget where you came from but don't let where you came from hold you back.

[luvah]

Last year I watched Pioneer rehearse before its performance in quarterfinals. I think they were by far the youngest corps, especially the drum line, that I saw. Pioneer is one of those corps that develops a lot of kids for the top corps. Pioneer's staff spends years developing talent and then when the kids get mature and good enough, they go march for a bigger corps.

And I think Pioneer's staff understand that and are happy with what they do. I think that Pioneer is successful is designing a show that young people can execute--and that Pioneer is doing something that's valuable and good.

[bhs alumni]

I like all of the input, thank you!

I am curious, though, as to why a corps like Blue Stars or Troopers, can be out and then come back even stronger than ever compared to a corps tht continues to field every year.

I know, there is the philosophies and such, but what makes a group like Blue Stars or Troop so much "better" for a lack of a term than Pio? Is it because of the talent pool that they are going after? Since they are not really local corps anymore, like most World Class?

We know that there is plenty of talent on Pio, but do Blue Stars have an "it" factor? Is it the age of the students?

I have heard instructors, show design, tradition (Irish), but I am really surprised to see a group, let's say Troopers, come back and do fairly well. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Also, do some corps have a "slotted" place? Would you ever expect Cavies or BD or Phantom to be battling with Mandarins or Cascades or Pioneer for position?

How can Mandarins be better, since they have about the same numbers each year and they play pretty much the same style music! Anyone for a taiko drum?

Age is a factor, Pioneer is usually a very young corps and that means a lot. Stamina, strength, chops...these are all things every corps works on every year, but if you start out ahead of another group in those terms (with older members) you can sustain yourselves longer. Recruiting and teaching also can play a factor. When the Troopers came back (if I remember right), they had a very different staff makeup and that, added with a VERY strong recruiting push, seems to have paid off. From what I can tell, a lot of Pioneer staffers (at times) are alum. That's both good and bad in that they would be very well versed in the "pio way" of doing things, but at the same time, by having little outside exposure you possibly limit yourselves in approach. Troopers and Blue Stars have a variety of people.

Mandarins are usually a smaller corps and visually use the style of "less is more." Their drill is not as technically demanding than some other corps, but they are usually very clean so they get points for achievement but less for demand. So yes, their music may sound similar but remember there are scores for visual as well. That being said, Mandarins do have more musical variety annually than Pio.

So to answer your question from a judge's standpoint (I've judged before but never judged DCI), one looks at so many things, and style of music is just one component. A quick over simplified breakdown of the score sheets:

GE -> overall score for Visual & one for Music: each caption gets judged on: repetoire (what the design/demand is) & performance (how well executed)

Visual -> performance: judging individual members, ensemble: judging the uniformity of the group, colorguard: demand, execution

Music -> brass, ensemble, percussion: each gets scored for demand & execution

Plus there are more definitions within these captions of what to look for.

So one could say Mandarins and Pioneer are of the same caliber because they are in the same general placement grouping but there are so many factors in determining that. The more experience one gains as a student, staff member, judge helps really understand the fine details that can seperate group A from group B. Yes there made be some slotting, but the only true way to know where a group should truly place is to put every group on in the same non-distinguishing uniform, announce no corps name, see no staff members near the group (basically a blind test where judges and crowd have no idea who the group is until after the scores are announced) and see what happens. A concept I would be curious to see but I know it would never happen.

Edited July 9, 2010 by bhs alumni

[brassensemble]

Define what you mean by level of excellence.

Are you referring to numbers given by judges?

Are you referring to rankings given by judges' placements?

Are you referring to 150 members vs 110 members?

Are you referring to choice of music?

Are you referring to general effect?

By what criteria do you define level of excellence?

[jwillis35]

I like all of the input, thank you!

I am curious, though, as to why a corps like Blue Stars or Troopers, can be out and then come back even stronger than ever compared to a corps tht continues to field every year.

I know, there is the philosophies and such, but what makes a group like Blue Stars or Troop so much "better" for a lack of a term than Pio? Is it because of the talent pool that they are going after?

Again, I think you are asking some great questions. Our responses, certainly mine, are bordering on sounding harsh and too critical. But I know that not one person on here is trying to be mean or too critical of Pioneer.

As I said before, if the goal for Pioneer is to field an entertaining show, have fun, teach kids some music and drill design, and to allow them the experience to perform, then great. They are doing that!

But if the goal is to score better, then there are two things that are needed: 1) better execution with music and visual and 2) better design and coordination with what is needed on the judging sheets.

The Troopers were struggling for some years, no doubt. They even had to sit out a season. But when they came back they were able to make some very difficult decisions based on design, teaching, and corps needs. They were not afraid to challenge their own ideology, their past traditions, and come last year we found them in the top 12 for the first time since 1986.

The Blue Stars were in a similar boat. Heck, we hadn't seen them in the top 12 since the 70s. But they found new management, new ideas, challenged themselves to break out of the box, brought in great teachers and designers...and here they are.

Pioneer can do that too. They really can, but it all depends on what is best for the corps. Your questions have been related to scoring, so we are only responding according to that aspect of DCI competition. Personally, I think they are fine. I would prefer for them to start a bit slower in terms of keeping the show a bit more simplistic and cleanable. Then I think they can add layers and work toward a level of sophistication once the skills and basics are there. I do like their show this year. In fact, this one is my favorite in years. I hope they keep moving in this direction. Sometimes it's ok to move away from some of the traditions that you have had for many years. Sometimes we get rusty and complacent and blinded by our own methods because we do not know anything else. I find that this year's musical book (a departure from the typical Irish music) is a welcome change and a wonderful vehicle for them.

And for the record...I LOVE Irish music!

[dbc03]

Define what you mean by level of excellence.

Are you referring to numbers given by judges?

Are you referring to rankings given by judges' placements?

Are you referring to 150 members vs 110 members?

Are you referring to choice of music?

Are you referring to general effect?

By what criteria do you define level of excellence?

All of the above plus the ability to march, play, and spin well

[brassensemble]

"Because the thing I enjoy most about drum corps is the high level of excellence and Pioneer doesn't achieve a level of excellence that would entice me to pay money to see it 50 times. I can enjoy a Pioneer show, but unless they move up the ranks and improve their level of excellence they aren't going to be the reason I buy tickets to a show."

Define what you mean by level of excellence.

Are you referring to numbers given by judges?

Are you referring to rankings given by judges' placements?

Are you referring to 150 members vs 110 members?

Are you referring to choice of music?

Are you referring to general effect?

By what criteria do you define level of excellence?