Do Props = Visual / GE?

[GMichael1230]

ie. Capital Regiment's sundial in 2005

poor thing looked like a Marlin jumping out of the water....when I told them that, they at first didnt get it, then laughed so hard.......LOL

[GMichael1230]

Apparently the scrims Star used in 1992 just didn't give them enough extra points to bring home the title. Maybe if they made them bigger....

or if they werent see thru..

G

[bluecoats88]

or if they werent see thru..

G

I thought the fact that they were see through was a good idea so you could still see the great drill they were doing, but it didn't quite work out that way since they weren't that see through and they were a distraction from the drill more than anything.

[Tez]

And you have just hit this whole art form on the head... That is what all of this about in a nutshell. Trying to put something so subjective as music and interpretation into a score. We may as well be judging poems and prose contests! The results would be no more consistent.

Then how do you explain the extreme consistency of DCI judging? If you pay attention to recent scoring trends one can almost always guess a corps' score for a particular contest within a point. Seems pretty darn consistent to me..... and that would tell me that the judges are looking for very specific things, and they are all hearing/seeing them consistently.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Tez

[BD2Rings]

I will try to add my two cents to all of this, and hope to take an abstract into something more permeable.

First, there was a time, long ago, when the Soviet Union ambitiously tried to game the system with regard to the Olympics. They were not the only ones. The 'Miracle on Ice' from the '80 Winter Olympics was a byproduct of these Soviet efforts. In a nutshell, the Olympics were 'suppose' to be for amateur athletes. Every Olympiad, the Americans chose athletes from various college campuses, in an attempt to adhere to the amateur principles. The Soviets, East Germans, Chinese, and others, did not. Soviet teams often consisted of the national team players, whose full time jobs were to be on the national teams. For the countries trying to adhere to this amateur direction, competing in the Olympics was playing against a stacked deck. The medal counts for Soviet block countries and for the Chinese always seemed disproportional. It was at this time of my life, that I developed a dislike for competition that was fully based on subjective judging. This would include the likes of gymnastics, figure skating and the like. Odd that I spent 4 years marching in a drum and bugle corps.

Second, and fully separate from the first, I can understand why some people have come to dislike the Blue Devils, even when I am a life long Blue Devil. When one corps/team/individual is a consistent front runner, they become a target. Be it BD, the Steelers, Yankees, Cowboys, UCLA basketball, USC Trojan football, Lance Armstrong, or whomever, many want to see the victors fall. In drum corps, it has not always been BD. Cavies and Cadets have had their days as targets too. When Crown and/or Coats win their first (possibly of many) championship, they too will become targets. It is inevitable.

Third, is where we attempt to merge the previous two entities. How do you take a subjective entity, such as judging a musical competition (and any and all possibly influences that will come with it), with the frustration some have with the Yankees? You can't. Drum corps is nothing like the 400 meter hurdles. A clock may be used in drum corps competition, but the clock is not what decides the victor. Drum corps is also not like the Tour de France. Many disliked Lance Armstrong due to his lengthy stay at the top, but this dislike was no factor is determining Lance's efforts against the clock. The tour is decided by the accumulated time against the clock over many days.

Bottom line, is there is no room in competition for favorites. If you hate the Yankees, so be it. You can choose to hate them your entire life, but it will have little to no influence on their win loss record next season. The same will be true if you hate BD. End of story.

Introducing an applauseometer for drum corps competition makes about as much sense as using the same equipment for the next USC / Notre Dame game. If you hate USC, so be it, but it will not affect the next game in which these two teams clash.

You may not like judging, nor the way it is done. And I would understand you for feeling that way. But the judging system of today is much better than what was used in the past. Go to either corpsreps or fromthepressbox and look at scores from the last week of 1974. On 8-10, at the US Open, BD was 5.35 points above DeLaSalle Oaklands 83.15 vs, 77.8. Just six days later, at DCI prelims, the Oaklands out scored BD 84.00 vs. 80.55. That score change went from 5.35 up, to 3.45 down in six days. That is a cumulative change of 8.8 in six days. There was a huge shuffle in the placements between semis and finals. But there really is no way to judge drum corps in a non-subjective way, even with that applausometer, as the subjective choice would only be made by others.

GH has made many, many suggestions of recent years to changing the style of drum corps. Some love him for it, and others do not. You dislike BD, fine. Realize that you have chosen to dislike them. BD has been on top of the ball throughout all of GH's influences, and can still come up with shows that work. Even with George Steinbrenner's passing, I still don't like the Yankees either.

Edited July 29, 2010 by BD2Rings

[GUARDLING]

I will try to add my two cents to all of this, and hope to take an abstract into something more permeable.

First, there was a time, long ago, when the Soviet Union ambitiously tried to game the system with regard to the Olympics. They were not the only ones. The 'Miracle on Ice' from the '80 Winter Olympics was a byproduct of these Soviet efforts. In a nutshell, the Olympics were 'suppose' to be for amateur athletes. Every Olympiad, the Americans chose athletes from various college campuses, in an attempt to adhere to the amateur principles. The Soviets, East Germans, Chinese, and others, did not. Soviet teams often consisted of the national team players, whose full time jobs were to be on the national teams. For the countries trying to adhere to this amateur direction, competing in the Olympics was playing against a stacked deck. The medal counts for Soviet block countries and for the Chinese always seemed disproportional. It was at this time of my life, that I developed a dislike for competition that was fully based on subjective judging. This would include the likes of gymnastics, figure skating and the like. Odd that I spent 4 years marching in a drum and bugle corps.

Second, and fully separate from the first, I can understand why some people have come to dislike the Blue Devils, even when I am a life long Blue Devil. When one corps/team/individual is a consistent front runner, they become a target. Be it BD, the Steelers, Yankees, Cowboys, UCLA basketball, USC Trojan football, Lance Armstrong, or whomever, many want to see the victors fall. In drum corps, it has not always been BD. Cavies and Cadets have had their days as targets too. When Crown and/or Coats win their first (possibly of many) championship, they too will become targets. It is inevitable.

Third, is where we attempt to merge the previous two entities. How do you take a subjective entity, such as judging a musical competition (and any and all possibly influences that will come with it), with the frustration some have with the Yankees? You can't. Drum corps is nothing like the 400 meter hurdles. A clock may be used in drum corps competition, but the clock is not what decides the victor. Drum corps is also not like the Tour de France. Many disliked Lance Armstrong due to his lengthy stay at the top, but this dislike was no factor is determining Lance's efforts against the clock. The tour is decided by the accumulated time against the clock over many days.

Bottom line, is there is no room in competition for favorites. If you hate the Yankees, so be it. You can choose to hate them your entire life, but it will have little to no influence on their win loss record next season. The same will be true if you hate BD. End of story.

Introducing an applauseometer for drum corps competition makes about as much sense as using the same equipment for the next USC / Notre Dame game. If you hate USC, so be it, but it will not affect the next game in which these two teams clash.

You may not like judging, nor the way it is done. And I would understand you for feeling that way. But the judging system of today is much better than what was used in the past. Go to either corpsreps or fromthepressbox and look at scores from the last week of 1974. On 8-10, at the US Open, BD was 5.35 points above DeLaSalle Oaklands 83.15 vs, 77.8. Just six days later, at DCI prelims, the Oaklands out scored BD 84.00 vs. 80.55. That score change went from 5.35 up, to 3.45 down in six days. That is a cumulative change of 8.8 in six days. There was a huge shuffle in the placements between semis and finals. But there really is no way to judge drum corps in a non-subjective way, even with that applausometer, as the subjective choice would only be made by others.

GH has made many, many suggestions of recent years to changing the style of drum corps. Some love him for it, and others do not. You dislike BD, fine. Realize that you have chosen to dislike them. BD has been on top of the ball throughout all of GH's influences, and can still come up with shows that work. Even with George Steinbrenner's passing, I still don't like the Yankees either.

WOW, now theres some new comparisons ..lol...great !!! But what about the props and GE...you know the thread..lol Just teasin ,

[silvertrombone]

I will try to add my two cents to all of this, and hope to take an abstract into something more permeable.

Thank you for your analysis. You make many great points, as did several other posters, and I recognize you all for this.

However, I'd prefer to not be lumped into the "BD haters" club. I never beat BD, nor Cadets. Star was gone by the time I marched Phantom so technically I never beat them either. Everyone else I was blessed to be in a corps that defeated them according to one judging panel or another on any given night...for whatever it's worth. And I have always been in utter amazement of 94 BD. Not so much for the show design as for the sheer talent level on all levels. Disgustingly good.

Further, being a PR alum I am supposed to be a Cavalier hater, period, end of discussion. Or some such. Never have been. Enjoyed thoroughly beating them in 94 the last two shows, but based totally on that season, not the attitudes of vets who had a different perspective. Took a break from 98 to 04. When I came back, Rosemont was bar none at the top of the game. NOBODY has ever been at that level of perfection as far as I'm concerned. 04 to 06 are about as close as I have seen drum corps come to the divine. But it was due to DESIGN. I sat mesmerized at their drill design. You simply could not take in everything in a couple of viewings. I envy anyone who toured with them in competing corps and got to simply watch them over and over and over night after night. Wow.

I recognize that BD has always been the top of the heap other than when Star was around and when Cavies were other-worldly (even though BD won titles during Cavies' reign). So I would like to think that I am possessing of something of an objective attitude here. I am shocked when anyone beats BD in brass, for example. Period. THAT is an accomplishment in my mind.

But where I recognize that Concord is the place to go if you want to perform with the best, I also question if perhaps the design team doesn't design to feature that talent...but to impress the judges, and thus to win. Is it a competitive activity? Obviously. Is it OK to design in such an activity specifically to win? Sure. Float your boat, to each his own...assuming that is the case.

But like I said...I sat mesmerized at Cavies 04-06. I thought my guys were robbed in 06 even though I recognized the greatness that 'Machine' represented.

I probably won't ever even look twice at BD 09/10. Nothing terribly innovative. Props. Musical quotes from the previous year's show. Congrats, enjoy the rings and all that. Next. It takes more than props, ego and the biggest budget to impress me. And again, ironic who is stating they need more money for their organization, isn't it? Bankrupt all the Open Class corps so we can have the championships, the electronics and the glory.

Don't take it out of context, but give me 1980. Maybe even 1976. Go Bluecoats...wreck it just for the sake of it.

[littlebirdy]

Then how do you explain the extreme consistency of DCI judging? If you pay attention to recent scoring trends one can almost always guess a corps' score for a particular contest within a point. Seems pretty darn consistent to me..... and that would tell me that the judges are looking for very specific things, and they are all hearing/seeing them consistently.

They are consistent because they aregiven strict guidelines as to what they need to judge. Also, scoring trends are generally "improvement over time". It's really easy to guess a new score "within a point" if you know the score they got the day before, or two days before. Judges get second or third reads on shows and know what they gave the corps last. As long as there is improvement, the score goes up.

Try guessing the first score of the year for every corps. That's where it gets hard.

[Lance]

But where I recognize that Concord is the place to go if you want to perform with the best, I also question if perhaps the design team doesn't design to feature that talent...but to impress the judges, and thus to win.

explain how you know this is the case.

and then talk more about people having egos.

[perc2100]

silvertrombone @ Jul 31 2010, 09:08 PM)

But where I recognize that Concord is the place to go if you want to perform with the best, I also question if perhaps the design team doesn't design to feature that talent...but to impress the judges, and thus to win.

explain how you know this is the case.

and then talk more about people having egos.

It is an absolutely silly and ludicrous "theory" that ANY designer DOESN'T design to impress the judges. The beauty of Blue Devils, Cavaliers, and to a slightly lesser extent Cadets is that the staff can program their show anyway they want and have confidence that they will attract the necessary talent to pull off any design aspect imaginable.