talent vs vehicle

[cjp87]

That is the premise of the post, and I'm suggesting that the premise is incorrect.

I actually said that BD's show is (probably) harder than most of the top 5 or 6, with the Cavies being around the same level and parts of the Coats and Cadets shows being on par. I mentioned the marching style to emphasize that a lot of the time they make hard drill look easy because that's what that style does when perfected. If the Troopers (who use the same style) were as clean as BD, everything they did would look effortless, too.

I am, however, suggesting that BD is cleaner at marching a show that is as or more difficult than the competitions, which is where the distinction comes in. I don't believe you can give Phantom/Cavies/Crown/Coats/Cadets BD's show and expect them to execute at the same level, as Phantom/Cavies/Crown/Coats/Cadets could not execute their own (equally or less demanding) show at that level in the first place. I am suggesting that BD has either a higher level of talent, a better level of instruction, or a combination of the two that allows them to achieve this higher level of perfection.

Thus, no, I don't think the designs could be interchanged and the best planned show would win every time. It takes both a championship design and a talented corps to perform it at a phenomenal level.

[bdlykdad]

More interestingly how would cadets or BD or other top 6 fared with crown's show?

I would think that only Phantom could come close to the "darkness" of the sound that Crown produces. That being said, the Crown sound is SO ENJOYABLY unique ... it would not do it justice to be heard by another brass line .... at least in my opinion.

[ContraFart]

That is the premise of the post, and I'm suggesting that the premise is incorrect.

I actually said that BD's show is (probably) harder than most of the top 5 or 6, with the Cavies being around the same level and parts of the Coats and Cadets shows being on par. I mentioned the marching style to emphasize that a lot of the time they make hard drill look easy because that's what that style does when perfected. If the Troopers (who use the same style) were as clean as BD, everything they did would look effortless, too.

I am, however, suggesting that BD is cleaner at marching a show that is as or more difficult than the competitions, which is where the distinction comes in. I don't believe you can give Phantom/Cavies/Crown/Coats/Cadets BD's show and expect them to execute at the same level, as Phantom/Cavies/Crown/Coats/Cadets could not execute their own (equally or less demanding) show at that level in the first place. I am suggesting that BD has either a higher level of talent, a better level of instruction, or a combination of the two that allows them to achieve this higher level of perfection.

Thus, no, I don't think the designs could be interchanged and the best planned show would win every time. It takes both a championship design and a talented corps to perform it at a phenomenal level.

I disagree with your premise entirely....BDs show is NOT more difficult than everyone else. There are many people on this board who would agree with me that they had the 5th or 6th most physically demanding show. Their brass book was very difficult at times because its very hard to play harsh dissonance in tune as BD did, but Crowns book was just as hard, and their hornline IMO would have dominated if were not for staging issues (which leads me back to design which leads me back to my original premise)

What I am saying is the talent of any individual MM in the top 6 is just about equal. Sure there are 1 or 2 phenoms in every corps, but you can take for instance the entire mellophone section of phantom, put them in BD, and have the same exact result that we had. It has become less and less about the kids and more and more about the design team and instructional staff and unless there are rubrics that can be directly compared....this is what is going to happen.

So essentially what you are saying (adhering to my premise), its not BDs kids that are more talented....its BDs staff that is more talented.

[GUARDLING]

I disagree with your premise entirely....BDs show is NOT more difficult than everyone else. There are many people on this board who would agree with me that they had the 5th or 6th most physically demanding show. Their brass book was very difficult at times because its very hard to play harsh dissonance in tune as BD did, but Crowns book was just as hard, and their hornline IMO would have dominated if were not for staging issues (which leads me back to design which leads me back to my original premise)

What I am saying is the talent of any individual MM in the top 6 is just about equal. Sure there are 1 or 2 phenoms in every corps, but you can take for instance the entire mellophone section of phantom, put them in BD, and have the same exact result that we had. It has become less and less about the kids and more and more about the design team and instructional staff and unless there are rubrics that can be directly compared....this is what is going to happen.

So essentially what you are saying (adhering to my premise), its not BDs kids that are more talented....its BDs staff that is more talented.

Who cares if its the kids or the staff who are more talented. Thats the sign of a great staff to write the best for what they have and make them look even better than what they are..Many corps have won who werent the most talented and many tale.nted corps have won with a not so great show.

FOR ME and its JMO this year BD had both

[MikeN]

Since DCI has started tracking corps member data, the corps with the oldest average age has won *every* year except 2008 (which was clearly a true upset).

The vehicle does matter, but having mature, experienced performers matters more, I think.

Mike

[Kamarag]

Since DCI has started tracking corps member data, the corps with the oldest average age has won *every* year except 2008 (which was clearly a true upset).

The vehicle does matter, but having mature, experienced performers matters more, I think.

Mike

Bingo. In fact, I think maturity level is even more important than raw talent.

[jordsterr]

I have to disagree with how difficult you think BDs show was.....it was very complicated, not very difficult. I know thats a nuanced statement, but I believe it to be true. Like I said I chose Phantoms show sort of arbitrarily and you can insert any other corps in the top 6 into this discussion.

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I must disagree. Let me first say that I'm a Cadets homer and have no dog in this hunt. The fact of the matter is that BD had an amazing amount of vovabulary. I was set to believe what we all tend to believe every year which is that BD still does what they did in the 80's with an easy but clean program. That is simply not the case. I saw that show this year from just about every vantage point, and I'm still blown away by not only how difficult it was but also by how amazing their technique was doing it. It was extraoordinary. Frankly, I don't agree with the hypothesis of this thread. No one else demonstrated the thechnique to get this show done at the level of BD. The cleanest corps won. That said, being an admitted Cadets homer, it does not make me happy to admit that>

[jordsterr]

and conversely would crown or cadets won with BDs design?

No. They would not have.

[jordsterr]

I disagree with your premise entirely....BDs show is NOT more difficult than everyone else. There are many people on this board who would agree with me that they had the 5th or 6th most physically demanding show. Their brass book was very difficult at times because its very hard to play harsh dissonance in tune as BD did, but Crowns book was just as hard, and their hornline IMO would have dominated if were not for staging issues (which leads me back to design which leads me back to my original premise)

What I am saying is the talent of any individual MM in the top 6 is just about equal. Sure there are 1 or 2 phenoms in every corps, but you can take for instance the entire mellophone section of phantom, put them in BD, and have the same exact result that we had. It has become less and less about the kids and more and more about the design team and instructional staff and unless there are rubrics that can be directly compared....this is what is going to happen.

So essentially what you are saying (adhering to my premise), its not BDs kids that are more talented....its BDs staff that is more talented.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. I heard definite overblowing causing balance and intonation problems in Carolina Crown on Saturday night, and I wa sitting very high. That was not a staging issue. It was kids overblowing their intsruments. Yes, they have a lovely sound, but there were inconsistencies (albeit not very many) that were simply not there with BD.

But I will agree with you in one point. The staff is very important. Professional educators who know how to get real results by TEACHING and not by HUMILIATING will win every time. But 23 year old techs who only what they did the year they aged out will not get the same results. That's not knocking 23 year old techs. I was one once, and everyone needs to get experience. But there are more and more people out there who play and teach better every year.

My one big disagreement with you is that, over the course of many seasons participating in drum corps, winter guard, drumline and marching band, clean wins. Period. Yes, Effect plays a major part which many people would agree with, but if it aint clean, it don't win.

[ContraFart]

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. I heard definite overblowing causing balance and intonation problems in Carolina Crown on Saturday night, and I wa sitting very high. That was not a staging issue. It was kids overblowing their intsruments. Yes, they have a lovely sound, but there were inconsistencies (albeit not very many) that were simply not there with BD.

But I will agree with you in one point. The staff is very important. Professional educators who know how to get real results by TEACHING and not by HUMILIATING will win every time. But 23 year old techs who only what they did the year they aged out will not get the same results. That's not knocking 23 year old techs. I was one once, and everyone needs to get experience. But there are more and more people out there who play and teach better every year.

My one big disagreement with you is that, over the course of many seasons participating in drum corps, winter guard, drumline and marching band, clean wins. Period. Yes, Effect plays a major part which many people would agree with, but if it aint clean, it don't win.

Okay so that brings me back to the original question....If BD is so clean and superior to everyone else.....would they have won with phantoms show design? Because if clean wins, period. Then they would have.

Also I dont know of any 23 year old techs in the top 6 who humiliate the MMs of their corps.

Did you see crown any other night other than Saturday? I did not see Saturday so I wouldnt be able to comment to what you heard, but I also that playing from 10 to 10 and sideline to sideline at 3 and 4 step intervals, any inconsistency is heard. BD is staged very well to the point that staging resets supersede continuity of drill in their visual design. The mirrors were smart not just for visual design, but aslo as almost a built in sound shell on the field.

My whole point is that design team and staff are becoming more important than the kids, I do however can buy the premise that maturity also plays a part, but with BD having such a strong and mature B corps....will they ever lose again?