talent vs vehicle

[dckid80]

I have to disagree with how difficult you think BDs show was.....it was very complicated, not very difficult. I know thats a nuanced statement, but I believe it to be true. Like I said I chose Phantoms show sort of arbitrarily and you can insert any other corps in the top 6 into this discussion.

You reveal your own bias with this statement.

[BCC99Man]

My whole point is that design team and staff are becoming more important than the kids, I do however can buy the premise that maturity also plays a part, but with BD having such a strong and mature B corps....will they ever lose again?

The design can never be more important than the members. Without the members, you would just have ink on paper. The Blue Devils this year had some of the best staged, designed and challenging ink on paper. They then added some of the best members who could perform the ink on paper.

Every part of the corps (members, show, staff) is important. This was probably one of the greatest performing group of Blue Devils in history (which is saying A LOT). Guess who taught them? The staff. That staff has not made any major changes in at least 20 years. And people wonder why they're always at the top...

Consistency and execution (and in the Blue Devils' case, being SUPERHUMAN marchers and performers) is the name of The Game.

[MikeN]

That staff has not made any major changes in at least 20 years. And people wonder why they're always at the top...

Though I would argue that data has not shown that the staff with the most longevity has won every year. But, see above, except for the upset in 2008 the corps with the oldest average age *has* won since DCI started tracking it. Members trump staff.

Now that I've shot my mouth off, though, I do agree that the continuity sure makes it easier on them!

Mike

[BCC99Man]

Though I would argue that data has not shown that the staff with the most longevity has won every year. But, see above, except for the upset in 2008 the corps with the oldest average age *has* won since DCI started tracking it. Members trump staff.

Now that I've shot my mouth off, though, I do agree that the continuity sure makes it easier on them!

Mike

Then I guess the Blue Devils are a statistical anomaly

That oldest corps age stat is very interesting tho. Young bloods need to step it up! (or kill their drum major )

[cjp87]

I disagree with your premise entirely....BDs show is NOT more difficult than everyone else. There are many people on this board who would agree with me that they had the 5th or 6th most physically demanding show. Their brass book was very difficult at times because its very hard to play harsh dissonance in tune as BD did, but Crowns book was just as hard, and their hornline IMO would have dominated if were not for staging issues (which leads me back to design which leads me back to my original premise)

What I am saying is the talent of any individual MM in the top 6 is just about equal. Sure there are 1 or 2 phenoms in every corps, but you can take for instance the entire mellophone section of phantom, put them in BD, and have the same exact result that we had. It has become less and less about the kids and more and more about the design team and instructional staff and unless there are rubrics that can be directly compared....this is what is going to happen.

So essentially what you are saying (adhering to my premise), its not BDs kids that are more talented....its BDs staff that is more talented.

First off, I didn't say it was more difficult than everyone's (though to say that it's the easiest in the top 6 is ludicrous), I said nobody else had a harder show, with Cavies and segments of others being on par. There is a general consensus amongst those who saw the corps up close and on ground level that it was a ridiculously difficult show. I'll go to the recap for evidence. BD scored a perfect 10 in Visual Vocabulary (content, often referred to as individual demand). So, according to the visual judges, BD maxed out the level of difficulty one would expect in a marcher in a junior corps show. Here are the rest of the top 7 for comparison:

Cavies: 9.9

Bluecoats: 9.8

Crown: 9.6

Cadets: 9.5

Phantom: 9.3

SCV: 9.3

Secondly, obviously the talent of the individuals (on average) across the corps is not equal. For this we'll look at the visual excellence scores. Remember, this score ranks the individual's execution of marching fundamentals, so the higher scores indicated better marchers overall.

BD: 9.9

Cavies: 9.8

Bluecoats: 9.6

Crown: 9.5

Cadets: 9.7

Phantom: 9.4

SCV: 9.1

When we go to visual ensemble, the same trend applies. BD scored a perfect 20 (again, maxing what is expected of a junior corps), while Cavies came in second with a 19.6, a pretty significant gap for Finals. This means that the Blue Devils had a more demanding show visually (perfect 10 vs. everything from a 9.8 down to Phantom's 8.9), and executed it better than everyone else (perfect 10 vs. 9.8 down to Phantom's 8.9).

This pretty clearly details how you couldn't just give someone BD's show and expect them to win. Conversely, if you gave BD Phantom's show, they would only score an 8.9 in ensemble demand, and a 9.3 in individual demand, a 1.8 point difference, which would allow Cavies to pass them, despite being cleaner with an easier show.

This pretty clearly illustrates that yes, BD's kids are more talented (or better instructed), and yes, BD's staff provided them with a vehicle to take that to a championship. You can't do it without one or the other.

[SFZFAN]

Waffles

[Perry S]

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I must disagree. Let me first say that I'm a Cadets homer and have no dog in this hunt. The fact of the matter is that BD had an amazing amount of vovabulary. I was set to believe what we all tend to believe every year which is that BD still does what they did in the 80's with an easy but clean program. That is simply not the case. I saw that show this year from just about every vantage point, and I'm still blown away by not only how difficult it was but also by how amazing their technique was doing it. It was extraoordinary. Frankly, I don't agree with the hypothesis of this thread. No one else demonstrated the thechnique to get this show done at the level of BD. The cleanest corps won. That said, being an admitted Cadets homer, it does not make me happy to admit that>

Yeah I have to agree. As much as I was not blown away by this years BD offering It was a VERY difficult show. I must admit BD rolls out drill as hard as anybodys.

[Paul Milano]

Back in 1979, when I was attending DCI board meetings, we discussed (sarcastically) the notion of getting all the designers/instructors together in a gym sometime in October and letting them present their program ideas to the judges. The judges would then pick the best design, we'd award the trophy, and then bring the corps members on a fun-filled tour of the country during the summer, visiting tourist stops and eating at great restaurants.

The more things change, the more they remain the same . . .

[TheClutch]

I can tell you that Cavaliers had people that were cut from both Crown and Bluecoats

[PepsiTwist]

I can tell you that Cavaliers had people that were cut from both Crown and Bluecoats

Uhhh- almost every corps has someone that was cut by another corps. I don't know for sure but I'd put money on the table that there were probably people in Crown or Bluecoats that were cut by Cavies. Just sayin.