World Class Motivation

[supersop]

If a kid marks mistake and you in return make them run a lap or do a push it is indeed corporal punishment and bad teaching.

Totally disagree. If you think that is bad then you would hate me teaching your kids. When they become totally unfocused and out of control (let's say this is a marching band at a high school with no tradition of excellence or any clue of what high performance standards are) ......... I would stop the rehearsal and have them "Assume The Position".

This is the Apex of a push-up, with your arms in a V, knuckles together and elbows out. Keep your body in perfect alignment without cheating your cheeks up in the air. This was a timed exercise. What did it accomplish?

1. It stopped everything else going on that was a distraction to proper rehearsal etiquette.

2. It strengthened the core muscles of the membership.

3. It cleared their mind of everything else going on ... and made them focus on their body and breathing.

4. It hurt.

Am I mean? Maybe ......... but it is positive reinforcement moreso than negative. I get's the members in the proper mindset for rehearsal and performance. It reminds them that they are there to do a job. It also shows them how strong they've become over the course of a season as they can "Assume The Position" for longer durations of time. At first, they hate it ....... as time moves forward and they see their progress ..... it becomes a chance for them to throw it in my face. It also shows that when they are not there for the right reasons, there are consequences for their actions. End result .. a much improved program, better physical fitness, a stronger mental attitude ......... and parents see a changed individual who is more focused and performs their shows, schoolwork and everything in between at a higher level than their parents have ever seen their child achieve.

Moral of the story: Being great hurts ... and if it doesn't hurt you're just kidding yourself about how great you think you are.

[The Other Mike]

If true, it sounds like they need to do some pushups!

WHOA! Did I just say that?

Nah...let's just stroke his ego and his self esteem and tell him how unfair the world is and that he deserves so much better. It doesn't matter that he has a bad attitude ('cuz we know his employers in the future won't care how he works or acts). In fact, I'm going to be "creative" in my instruction and have him go do timeout on the side of the field. Then after his five minutes of timeout, I might just give him a big candy bar because I want him to think I'm a nice instructor who believes love is just coddling people.

Since I'm thinking it's mostly BS to begin with, I would think this is someones mother posting as a man to throw off the scent. They have most likely started crap for several days and not gotten any recruits so they came on DCP as a man so they could go back to others and say "see, there's someone else who thinks the same thing I do, I' NOT the only one who feels this way".

I say a 1st year mom who thinks their little "jeffery" (who's private teacher gives them warm and fuzzy trophies each week), was unfairly picked on just because they were expected to work their butt off ALL summer and stop being a PITA.

I think we all know the type ( and boy is she ###### NOW )

[The Other Mike]

If a kid marks mistake and you in return make them run a lap or do a push it is indeed corporal punishment and bad teaching.

marks mistake ?

Take a lap for the typo

[Liahona]

Based upon all of the people who seem to be supporting this form of abuse, I must presumre that it is very prevalent in drum corps, and widely accepted. This saddens me.

I, for one, do not believe it should ever be accepted.

I had hoped to avoid mentioning and names of specific corps, but in order to explain my concern, I must. The corps where the blog was posted happended to be the Carolina Crown. The sad fact is that when I saw the young man collpase on Saturday, one of the first thoughts in my mind was that it was to be expected considering how hard the members had been pushed this season. It is a sad point that from what I had heard and what I had read, I was not surprised to see this young man's body break down. (Here comes another tirade from the know it alls because I dared mention the corps in quesion, but it does seem to be very relavent.)

I am not concerned about a few pushups. I am concerned about that fact it seems to be accpetable to beat these kids into the ground to the point that there could be another Ryan incident in the future.

I hated seeing him go down. I hate the fact there could be a correlation between the practice techniques of that orgnization and his injury.

I would love to find out I am wrong, but I don't think I will. Many people are arguing this form of abuse is accpetable. I will never accept any actions that could lead to another broken leg due to fatigue or overuse of the body.

From the way many of you are acting, it seems you think it is okay to push that hard. If you do, and you join a drum corps, I hope you have a good expereicne, more importantly, I hope you are not injured by over working your body.

Errors occur. Nobody wants to make them. After four hours on the field, with no significant breaks, fatigue will cause the mind and body to wonder, leading to brain farts. The solution should never be to make the indivdual more tired. This will only lead to more brain farts, or more importantly, injuries, that could lead to more occurences like Saturday night. I don't ever want to see something like that again, but considering how many of you feel the abuse is acceptable, I must presume it is only a matter of time before we see another incident.

This subject has turned into the "argument" I was trying to avoid.

I had heard many stories of how hard Crown was pushing all year. Some of my sources happen to be medical doctors who attended their camps to see it first hand. They mentioned how concerned they were for the health of the members. When I read the blog, I had to believe there was some truth to the story. When I saw Ryan go down, I was furioius mainly because I was not surprised. My friends' concern was born out and a serious injury did occur.

If the concern of a long time drum corps pariticipant is rediculous then I guess I am a feeble, old guy, but I started this discussion because of a real concern. I don't want there to be any more Ryans out there , but I must presume there will be more. Nobody wants to step up and admit this is out there, and nobody seems to feel it is wrong. I only hope the next occurence is not more serious.

I feel very sad about what drum corps has become if this is acceptable. Rehearsals are run like prison camps with physical and mental abuse being the norm in the chase of perfection. What has our society become when this is okay?

You have groups of highly motivated, highly talented young men and women who are giving up their time, and paying dearly to participate. It should not be necessary to abuse them to get them motivated. While it may take more effort to motivate in a positive manner, I can assure you the results will be better. The abuse method is a cop out because it is easy to scream and holler and it is easy to punish.

Crown came out of the gates this season so strong I presumed they would go far. As the season went on, I saw a drum corps crash and burn before my very eyes. From Murfreesboro on, every performance was weaker than the last. Yes, the scores went up, but scores are driven more by the celendar than they are by actual performance. The kids were pushed harder and harder and the results were negative. It hurt to watch this from the outside, but my concern seems to be considered worthless.

I am going to give up on this thread. Obviously nobody wants to be honest about what is happening. I can only presume the secrecy is because of fear of what may happen should the truth get out.

God help the members of corps ten years from now if we keep moving in this direction.

This was my first post on DCP and will be my last. I was trying to do something positive and it got turned competely around. What seems to amaze me is I feel many of the people responding are not, nor have aver been members of a drum corps. This is so very, very sad.

This sounds like nothing more than a OVER-EXAGGERATION of the facts. I don't follow your logic as it seems flawed. Sorry!

[Kamarag]

If a kid marks mistake and you in return make them run a lap or do a push it is indeed corporal punishment and bad teaching.

You don't even know what corporal punishment is, despite being given the definition. Clearly you're not interested in healthy debate. It seems like you have an axe to grind.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Kamarag

[RetiredJedi]

I still don't agree with you. Giving out laps or push ups is wrong. There's a better way to teach.

It's called inspiring the student to work hard and reach their full potential. Laps or push ups are teaching through a fear motivation.

We're still waiting for your specific techniques. What group(s) have you applied these inspiring techniques?

[DC Guy]

I have beeen hearing sotries regarding how the instructional staffs of corps "motivate" the members these days. In many cases, it appears they use the threat of physical penalty for making errors, such as running laps or doing push ups.

I watch other corps rehearse, and I'm continually amazed and appalled that this type of practice still goes on.

If performers take it upon themselves to "do pushups" (or whatever) to acknowledge they made a mistake, that's one thing ... but for a staff member to use physical punishment as a threat for not making errors is something I haven't seen in decades.

Physical threats is part of the 'old school' system, which may produce results, is NOT sustainable ... and the practice should be stopped ... in drum corps, band, whatever. It's a bad practice.

Edited August 20, 2010 by DC Guy

[MarimbaManiac]

This kind of "teaching" is the sign of a bad teacher. "I don't know how to make this kid better so... I'm going to make this kid do push ups! That'll teach 'em"

Do you think the membership is purposely not doing what you asked? Is that why they deserved push ups or laps? Also, if you make a kid do push ups for an error that is called Corporal Punishment. I hope that nobody is doing that to their kids. A great instructor motivates his kids to work hard because they all share a common vision. This may not be the answer you're looking for but I just wanted to add my two cents

Ashy

This comment is short sighted and ill informed.

There are two types of mistakes:

1 - A mistake made because a student doesn't have the right training or subject knowledge to complete the task effectively.

2 - A mistake made because the student is zoning out, not listening to directions, or being defiant.

The former is the fault of the instructor, and is dealt with by reinforcing the method. The latter is the fault of the performer, and it is more than appropriate for the educator to assign physical punishment for making these types of errors.

Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the butt to wake up a student, no matter what level they are performing at.

[The Other Mike]

Based upon all of the people who seem to be supporting this form of abuse, I must presumre that it is very prevalent in drum corps, and widely accepted. This saddens me.

****************************************************************************

Oh, I left out I have been around drum corps for 48 seasons, so I have seen a lot.

In my 10 active years, prior to DCI, I won 9 national championships, 4 marching, 4 teaching, and 1 individual. I am still a professional musician in the Chicago area, and have held my own while performing with members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and Lyric Opera Orchestra. I am not the common, untrained fan in the stands.

So which is it ?

Have you been around drum corps for 48 seasons, or do you presume what has gone on in drum corps for 48 seasons ? I mean, you've see alot right ?

I smell a sock puppet.

The two people with the complaints BOTH joined YESTERDAY.

Pardom me "ashy" or whomeever you are, your slip is showing.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, go back to the kiddie pool

Don't jump into the deep end of the pool without your waterwings

[Granny Smith]

It's called inspiring the student to work hard and reach their full potential. Laps or push ups are teaching through a fear motivation.

I still don't agree with you. Giving out laps or push ups is wrong. There's a better way to teach.

Please enlighten us. Also, many of you are speaking hyperbolically and it's not helpful. "Fear motivation" is a valid motivation. No matter who is posting on this board, you are motivated by "fear" (of sorts). This is why you don't reach across the counter at McDonalds and smack the kids who's copping an attitude with you (apparently someone used creative motivation with him). It's why you slam on your brakes when you see the highway patrolman ahead of you.

I KNOW that I will have almost zero influence on many of you reading what I write. It's because you are sentimentalists and everything is governed by your emotions and how you feel.

Wowzers. I need to go sit down. This is what you get when I post while watching reruns of 24. (Jack would laugh at this discussion)

P.S. I'm sure some of you can tell that my "button" was pushed on this topic. I have raised five children, have been involved in teaching youth programs, classes in schools, etc. and I've seen the "product" of "creative" instructing.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Granny Smith