The 150 member increase.

[venkeman]

Um, no they didn't. Not in 09. Please keep in mind, my homework assignment was 2009, not 2010 I don't know what they marched in 2010. Don't care right now. 09 was what everyone said I was wrong about so that is what I checked. And trust me, Cadets did not carry the numbers you just gave us.

Believe it or not, I actually counted them 8 times (and from different minute numbers) because I was so shocked at the number I saw. Tomorrow, 10am cst.

(Now watch folks, venkeman won't even come back and admit that he was mistaken on the year he thought I was talking about. And by the way, this also proves that he isn't even reading everything I write. How can a person claim a person is wrong about something when they don't even know what the other person said? Yes indeed, folks venkeman's rebuttle is as follows..."I did not read what you wrote but I know that whatever it is, you are wrong". Got it!)

Oh, I have read all 40 of your previous posts. And I have enjoyed how you tear everyone apart who disagrees with what you want to say. And how you try to sqirm out of the question when your proven wrong.

And while I was quoting the 2010 numbers, your 2009 numbers for Cadets are wrong. In '09 they marched 72 horns, 9/5/5 15 pit, 42 guard, 2 DM's. = 150. Now, again, you can come back and say that because of injuries they didn't have that number on the field at finals and only what they marched at finals counts, but for the majority of the season, those were the numbers ON THE FIELD! So they marched 150! And I would love to see you go up to a member who was injured and didn't march finals and tell them that they didn't count or wasn't part of the corps!

Now, to get back to your original 3 questions:

#1. A combination of A and C. Most corps are getting above the old 128 and many of those numbers are going into the guard.

#2. Yes, the change was worth it. Even if the average # in each corps is 135 (I believe it is higher), that's 161 more young people who have the chance to march with a World Class corps. And even if it is just the top 5 or 6 that are reaching 150, that's still 110 to 132 more kids that get to march with the best of the best. Is that worth it, YES!

#3. Is it fair the Yankees have a 206.7 million dollar payroll? Last time I checked, the DCI sheets didn't include points for the numbers of people in the corps. The corps that utilize their talents to the utmost and have in place good instructional staff and sound educational programs are going to achieve, no matter what their size. Otherwise, the assumption would be that the bigger you are the higher you finish. And that is just a canard.

Now you can go ahead and tear apart my answers and say that I am wrong (you seem pretty good at that), but here's a challenge for you. Why don't you give well thought out answers to your own questions instead of posing them and then ripping everyone else apart.

Have A Nice Day!

Edited August 23, 2010 by venkeman

[Jeff Ream]

150 is about the max for me. It's already starting to look cluttered on the field for a lot of corps. Please no more increases.

yep. and with the increase in size, while everyone here seems to focus on brass, have you noticed pits getting bigger every year?

why I thought amplification would lead to pits staying the same or even shrinking. I mean we were told that in the proposal

[hotdogchompa]

I think 150 just creates a super corps class (G7) and vacuums more members out of lower placed corps. This hurts membership in the lower corps and the G7 pulls away from the pack.

I would like to see 150 in all - more members , more sound etc. the reality is that this activity needs to limits in a lot of areas that will even the playing field and promote growth.

It's a hard thing to do with constant evolution and perfection in the activity. In our pursuit of perfection we lose more drum corps and more chances for young people to enjoy it.

I believe the OP is looking at the rule change and if it works for ALL corps. Clearly it does not do that.

[txpride]

Oh, I have read all 40 of your previous posts. And I have enjoyed how you tear everyone apart who disagrees with what you want to say. And how you try to sqirm out of the question when your proven wrong.

And while I was quoting the 2010 numbers, your 2009 numbers for Cadets are wrong.

LOL! See, there you go, I have not even posted them yet and you are already saying they are wrong. Unbelievable!.

But alas, I will not be wrong in my numbers at 10am.

In '09 they marched 72 horns, 9/5/5 15 pit, 42 guard, 2 DM's. = 150.

Nope. You didn't even have the right number of tenors and that's EASY to count. Sorry man. You are a little off and I will have minute numbers that are very easy to count that you will be able to double check my work with and keep me accountable.

because of injuries they didn't have that number on the field at finals and only what they marched at finals counts, but for the majority of the season, those were the numbers ON THE FIELD! So they marched 150! And I would love to see you go up to a member who was injured and didn't march finals and tell them that they didn't count or wasn't part of the corps!

All I know is what I counted on the DVD. If you say there were injuries, fine. I said I would count the numbers from the DVD, that's it. I did not say I would survey every corps for how many they lost due to injuries.

I'll show you at 10am. And if you think I'm wrong in my counts, I'll post the exact DVD minute numbers for you to go back and find proof that I am not wrong.

Now, to get back to your original 3 questions:

#1. A combination of A and C. Most corps are getting above the old 128 and many of those numbers are going into the guard.

#2. Yes, the change was worth it. Even if the average # in each corps is 135 (I believe it is higher), that's 161 more young people who have the chance to march with a World Class corps. And even if it is just the top 5 or 6 that are reaching 150, that's still 110 to 132 more kids that get to march with the best of the best. Is that worth it, YES!

#3. Is it fair the Yankees have a 206.7 million dollar payroll? Last time I checked, the DCI sheets didn't include points for the numbers of people in the corps. The corps that utilize their talents to the utmost and have in place good instructional staff and sound educational programs are going to achieve, no matter what their size. Otherwise, the assumption would be that the bigger you are the higher you finish. And that is just a canard.

Now you can go ahead and tear apart my answers and say that I am wrong (you seem pretty good at that), but here's a challenge for you. Why don't you give well thought out answers to your own questions instead of posing them and then ripping everyone else apart.

Have A Nice Day!

I already have, otherwise I would not have started this thread. And as for tearing people apart. It's you who has been tearing ME apart. So stop being hypocritical.

Edited August 23, 2010 by txpride

[venkeman]

LOL! See, there you go, I have not even posted them yet and you are already saying they are wrong. Unbelievable!.

You already said that they DIDN'T field 150, and I say they did. So, while you haven't posted an exact number, I and disputing the info you did post.

Nope. You didn't even have the right number of tenors and that's EASY to count.

I know you're going to tell me that they only marched 4 because that is all that was on the field for finals. But they marched 5 for most of the season.

All I know is what I counted on the DVD. If you say there were injuries, fine.

That sort of puts an end to your entire argument. Again, if they didn't appear on the finals DVD then they don't count? Let me apply your theory to another scenario.

"Major League Baseball obviously needs to reduce the numbers of players that each team can have on the rosters. I mean, how can it be a good thing if a team like the Boston Red Sox can only field a team of 12. Now some people have told me that they have a full roster of 25, but I watched the game and even taped it and stopped at several points and I could only count 12 different players."

I've given you my answers to your initial 3 question hypothesis. Take it for what it is, my opinion. The only way you will get a credible answer to the 150 question is to talk to the corps directors and staffs yourself. I won't drop any names, but I did talk, briefly, to a couple about the decision on the number of horns they carried, and they all said it was their choice. And we're talking everything from 72 - 80. (And all the corps fielded 150 to start 2010.) So it had nothing to do with not being able to field the 150 max.

From your arguments you seem to be opposed to the 150 rule because it hurts the smaller corps. That's fine. (Though you did say earlier that you were fine with 150.) Again, if raising the max from 135 to 150 has increased the number of kids marching world class, then I say it was successful even if they are all not carrying 150, for what ever reasons.

You can keep arguing about what numbers appear or don't appear on the 2009 DVD's, but I need to go to work. Thanks to everyone for their great comments and opinions.

Enough said.

Have A Nice Day!

[cage]

I know you're going to tell me that they only marched 4 because that is all that was on the field for finals. But they marched 5 for most of the season.

I looked back at the Fan Network videos just to confirm what you said.

Annapolis they had 4 with an obvious hole for the 5th

Beverly 5

Columbia 4 with hole

Houston 5

San Antonio 5

Atlanta 4 with hole

Allentown 4 and appear to have closed the hole

Correct me if I am wrong but at a certain point in the year I would assume it is easier to close the hole than getting someone up to speed with the whole show.

Edited August 23, 2010 by cage

[cage]

I was anxiously awaiting the 10am CST announecment.

[txpride]

Ok, sorry I'm a few minutes late but I wanted to double check a few things this morning before I posted. Accuracy is more important to me than speed.

Before I start, I want to give a disclaimer -

Disclaimer - I only promised to count brass numbers and not anything else. Yet, I decided to go for it and try the other sections as well. Therefore, I am NOT going to claim 100% accuracy on pit, guard amd Drum Majors. While I'm confident that I got most of the guard, pit and DM's numbers right, I'm also going to admit that at times it was nearly impossible to count those sections (and in two cases didn't even try). I am especially uncertain of DM numbers due to possible unaccounted for backfield conductors etc. So, I am OPEN to correction there.

However, since venkeman challenged me hard after I gave one away last night, I am going to claim that I am correct on ALL of the Cadets numbers. Part of the reason I am late is because I wanted to go over that one with a fine toothed comb. I literally spent 1 and 1/12 hour on the Cadets this morning.

I am also confident that I am accurate on brass and battery numbers (though people STILL do make mistakes, which is why I left the minute numbers for you to check my work).

As also promised, I will post minute numbers so anyone can go back to the exact spot on the DVD from which I counted and double check my work. I used different spots for different sections sometimes so you will in most cases see minute numbers listed with the selected section. I used the high camera feature for these counts (and occasionally used my zoom feature to assure accuracy).

So here goes (brass numbers are underlined since that is the only figure I really promised)...

* Blue Devils - 76 brass (2:08), 18 battery, 12 pit, 40 guard, 2 DM (2:55). Total: 148

* Carolina Crown - 80 brass (8:09) , 18 battery...could not count guard and pit for this one. The cream colored uniforms made it nearly impossible. Though I will guess that they really were probably 150.

* Cadets - 72 brass (8:09), 18 battery, 15 pit (1:15 zoomed in) 40 guard (1:15 amd yes, I DID count the soloists as well), 2 DM's. Total 147 (I'm sure venkeman will swear up and down that his 42 member guard figure was right. However, it is wrong. And I checked 11 times and in more than one spot than just "1:15"...though 1:15 is probably the easiest spot to get an accurate count.) Sorry venkeman, but they marched 147 on the night of finals. Case closed.

* Cavaliers - 80 brass (1:27), 18 battery, 12 pit, 32 guard, 2 DM. Total: 144

* Santa Clara Vanguard - 76 Brass (3:26) , 20 Battery (YAY cymbal line ), 12 pit, 39 guard (odd number, must have had a hole), 2 DM. total: 149 (OOOoooo, almost)

* Bluecoats - 78 brass (11:10), 18 battery (10:45), guard was too hard to count because they kept hiding behind the front field props. And pit was too hard as well. Ok, since they have no total, we'll go ahead and give them a "150" by default. Though I have my doubts. With a number like 78 for brass (and one person certain earlier in this thread that they had 80), I would bet that there are holes in the brass line and therefore they were likely 148.

* Boston - 72 brass (5:41), 18 battery, 12 pit, 41 guard (another odd number, 1 hole probably? Counted them 4 times at 9:53), 2 DM. Total: 145

* Blue Stars - 72 brass (1:55...and yes, I was originally wrong about this one...though wrong in a way that furthers my own point in that they were LESS than I originally states), 17 battery, 12 pit, 2 DM. Total: 139

* Phantom Reginent - 80 brass (12:07), 18 battery, 12 pit, 2 visual soloists, 2 DM. Total: 148

* Glassmen - 75 brass (6:24), 19 battery, 13 pit, 36 Guard, 2 DM. Total: 145

* Blue Knights - 72 brass, 17 battery, 14 pit, 36 guard, 3 DM. Total: 142

* Troopers - 66 brass, 17 battery, 11 pit, 28 guard, 2 DM. Total: 124

Here is the thing for me. You have 1-3 corps in 09 that MIGHT have had the full 150 on the week of finals (though I have my doubts about at least two of the ones that might have been). You have 6 corps that had more than 145 (including those corps that MIGHT have had 150) and then all of the rest had less than 145 (with one corps in the 130s and another in the low 120s.

In addition to that, I have read where people have posted throughout the thread that some corps have chosen a membership number under 150.

Now, I understand that 150 is only the max and not a requirement. But if after experimenting with this change we are hard pressed to find more than 6 or 7 corps who not only aren't fielding 150 but not even marching more than 145, is it not reasonable to suggest that maybe we should re-consider a lower number.

Especially if corps are finding that they would rather go with 147 or 148, maybe 150 is not a good choice. Someone asked me earlier if I thought the Blue Devils couldn't field 150. Of course they CAN. In fact, I know they can field at least 240 if they wanted to. Obviously, they don't want to.

Then if you look at the pattern below the top 6, it really shrinks. Then take a look at Troopers and you wonder how much lower it gets under that.

Now, I'm not suggesting we go back to 128. I'm not even suggesting 135. How about 140? Based on the patterns of the figures I posted, 140 looks like a much more realistic number for everyone. Thoughts?

Edited August 23, 2010 by txpride

[cage]

So this is no different than the top 12 in 1987 when only one maybe two corps had 128. The brass lines ranged from 56-75 and total corps size ranged from 128-116. Don't see any difference over the last 23 seasons. Oh well, the thread was fun anyway.

[txpride]

So this is no different than the top 12 in 1987 when only one maybe two corps had 128. The brass lines ranged from 56-75 and total corps size ranged from 128-116. Don't see any difference over the last 23 seasons. Oh well, the thread was fun anyway.

THAT is going to be my next project...because I SAW your figures and am 100% certain that you were WAY off the mark on SEVERAL of your figures. If any corps had hornlines in the 70s that year, it was Cadets and Star. NOBODY else! I KNOW you were off on several!