The 150 member increase.

[cage]

Mmmmm? I don't know. It's still a statistical comparison that can either be proven valid or invalid.

We need to first of all confirm that his figures are at least 85-100% accurate (and maybe they are). If they are, then his point is valid.

But if we re-check his figures and find them to be as off as I think they MIGHT be, then his point may not be as valid.

There is a chance he may be right and that we are no different in our struggles to meet the max now as we were back then. But if we come to find out everyone in finals was at least in the ball park of 128, then it's not a valid comparison.

Heck, after the figures I just sited, if at least SIX corps had the full 128 with no holes or alterations. Than the conclusion would be that no, we are not in the same place with our max number struggles than we were back in 87. I'd even go as far as to say if there is even ONE corps with 128 in 87, we are struggling more with our 150 max because I don't even know for sure if the one corps I think really DID have 150 (i.e., Crown) really did have that many (those darned cream colored uniforms...I love them but they are hard to count...Lol).

If you recheck 87 and get what you said the numbers will be lower. If SCV marched 64 bugles (haven't had a chance to use that in a while) instead of 70 that puts them down to 122 and makes my point more valid. I don't know how I could have added that many. I think it's actually harder to count the dark uniforms on the old videos. BTW, I only had 1 SCV, maybe 2 Garfield with 128. Again you want to take away from my numbers. I have nothing to base this on other than memory, but it seems to me up until about 8 or 9 years ago the numbers dipped a lot faster after 12th or 13th.

[cage]

More kids get to march and get the drum corps experience. 150 > 135. As for the pioneer or cascades argument, design better shows and hire better instructors and the talent will come flowing in too.

There is no doubt you need a hook to get some of the kids. Whether it be get the love from the fans or being competitive for a title. Obviously it's not titles they are seeking because they moved away from that when they moved up. That goes for Mandarins as well as a few corps we have lost in the not so distant past like Southwind and Kiwanis Kavaliers.

[Shamu89]

Are we talking about the same year? I thought Geoffry was the 2010 soloist. Man, I may have to go back but I'm pretty certain I nailed it because like I said, I went over it quite a few times and from some different minute markings. I got 40 at least 9 or 10 times.

As for whether or not its a "bad" thing to be at 147 OR 148 is not really the issue with me. My concern is more with whether or not we should consider a lower max I'd that many corps are in the mid to high 40s (and some even lower than that).

Ooops. I counted 2010, not 2009. My bad. ;)

As for the second part, I guess it comes down to why each corps didn't meet the 150 number. Like I said before, 2010 Cadets were right at 150 until injuries cropped up late in the season. I believe they even had to replace one injured horn player in the 11th hour right before Allentown. I think the bigger point would be are corps able to get 150+ out of the audition process and come out of spring training with 150 and alternates. That's a more valid number to use for comparison than what was actually marching at finals. Trouble is, that's not a number that's easy to get. ;) Or if you see a corps consistently march 140 all season, then you'd have something to work with. But to look at just finals? I don't think that's a good enough example to say corps aren't able to fill 150.

[txpride]

If you recheck 87 and get what you said the numbers will be lower. If SCV marched 64 bugles (haven't had a chance to use that in a while) instead of 70 that puts them down to 122 and makes my point more valid. I don't know how I could have added that many. I think it's actually harder to count the dark uniforms on the old videos. BTW, I only had 1 SCV, maybe 2 Garfield with 128. Again you want to take away from my numbers. I have nothing to base this on other than memory, but it seems to me up until about 8 or 9 years ago the numbers dipped a lot faster after 12th or 13th.

Hahaha! Yeah, that's true. Though only if your percussion and guard numbers are correct and I'm not sure all of them are (including a few of the bottom 6. Some of your combinations just looked a little wacky to me. But hey, it aint easy counting from the DVDs. But it is possible. Perhaps easier with the current years because you have more features like the high cam and can zoom in and out etc.

I'll get in there and dig at my 87 counts some time this week. It will be fun. :-)

[txpride]

If you recheck 87 and get what you said the numbers will be lower. If SCV marched 64 bugles (haven't had a chance to use that in a while) instead of 70 that puts them down to 122 and makes my point more valid. I don't know how I could have added that many. I think it's actually harder to count the dark uniforms on the old videos. BTW, I only had 1 SCV, maybe 2 Garfield with 128. Again you want to take away from my numbers. I have nothing to base this on other than memory, but it seems to me up until about 8 or 9 years ago the numbers dipped a lot faster after 12th or 13th.

Hahaha. Yeah, I see what you are saying and technically you would be right7. Except however, that I think you might actually be a little under on a few of the guard counts for 87.

We'll check it out though. Some time this week I'll take a crack at counting the 87 finslist using the same kinds of methods I used with 09 and we'll see how it comes out. It will be fun.

[txpride]

Taking your 2009 numbers as accurate, the top twelve corps had Finals counts of: 150, 149, 148, 148, 148, 147, 145, 145, 144, 142, 139, and 124. That's an average of 144.1 members. Take out the Troopers, and the average is 145.9.

Dude, you are my HERO for taking the time to do that. Not that it was that hard but just the fact that you went ahead and did the math. Awesome! I'm glad you did it.

So, any further thoughts now that the statistical bar on this thread has been raised one more level?

[txpride]

Ooops. I counted 2010, not 2009. My bad. ;)

As for the second part, I guess it comes down to why each corps didn't meet the 150 number. Like I said before, 2010 Cadets were right at 150 until injuries cropped up late in the season. I believe they even had to replace one injured horn player in the 11th hour right before Allentown. I think the bigger point would be are corps able to get 150+ out of the audition process and come out of spring training with 150 and alternates. That's a more valid number to use for comparison than what was actually marching at finals. Trouble is, that's not a number that's easy to get. ;) Or if you see a corps consistently march 140 all season, then you'd have something to work with. But to look at just finals? I don't think that's a good enough example to say corps aren't able to fill 150.

Some very valid points! Thank you. Here's what I am pretty certain of. Most corps in the top 6 have no problem hitting a high enough number at the audition camps to be able to settle at 150 or somwhere in the high 140s. Down below, not so easy and when you are a corps trying to crack in (or crack BACK in) like Troopers, it's like shooting the moon to hit 150 unless you have some sort of super staff and management suddenly jump out in front of you out of the bushes (like Madison).

If you look at my 09 chart, you will see how it gets smaller in the bottom 6. Phantom was an exception because they just came off of a winning year in 08. So for me, I think dropping it 10 or so members would make it a little more reasonable and fair for the corps outside the bottom 6.

By the way, congrats to your daughter on a great rookie year. I may have my issues with Hop, but I still respect the corps and even moreso, the kids wearing the uniforms. She going back in 2011? :-)

[CuriousMe]

Some very valid points! Thank you. Here's what I am pretty certain of. Most corps in the top 6 have no problem hitting a high enough number at the audition camps to be able to settle at 150 or somwhere in the high 140s. Down below, not so easy and when you are a corps trying to crack in (or crack BACK in) like Troopers, it's like shooting the moon to hit 150 unless you have some sort of super staff and management suddenly jump out in front of you out of the bushes (like Madison).

If you look at my 09 chart, you will see how it gets smaller in the bottom 6. Phantom was an exception because they just came off of a winning year in 08. So for me, I think dropping it 10 or so members would make it a little more reasonable and fair for the corps outside the bottom 6.

By the way, congrats to your daughter on a great rookie year. I may have my issues with Hop, but I still respect the corps and even moreso, the kids wearing the uniforms. She going back in 2011? :-)

Right, but the a corps like the Troopers (to use your example) doesn't need to compete with the top 6 to crack back in....they're competing against other corps like themselves. Yes, I realize that they're all at the same show....but my point is, that how the top 6 are arranged, isn't what the Troopers are dealing with. They're competing against other corps about where they are.

[Liahona]

And just how many hornlines are in the 80s? I know of only 3. Those are Crown (with 80), Blue Stars (with 80) and Madison Scouts (with 84). Sure, I'm sure on paper a few more corps have an 80+ member hornline LISTED. But did they get there? NO! Again, just go back and COUNT when your DVDs come in.

I vote for 135 horns and 15 drums....lol J/k

[MikeD]

Since the limit increase was just based on filling out empty seats on a coach bus, the next incremental increase would be another full bus (ie 200 members). Adding woodwinds would be 160 more kids and three buses (one of the reasons woodwinds will not be marching in DCI). While I don't agree things look cluttered with 80 horns, I do agree that it is very near the upper limit for "un-cluttered-ness".

Oh, there is PLENTY of room!