The 150 member increase.

[Bruckner8]

Sigh! I never said that. And even though I've addressed the "the other numbers are in the guard" argument now over 10 times, I'll say it again. Please show me a corps with 55-60 guard or a corps with 40-50 percussion.

And I'll also again repeat this. Please add up the following current averages for todays corps... 72 horns, 28 percussion (including pit), 32 guard and 2 DM equils?........(I'll give you a hint...it's NOT "150").

I made a very good argument against you on this, in a previous post in this thread. You did not respond. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it so.

[cage]

Measuring the health of the entire activity based on how well 8 corps can recruit is ludicrous. Post a picture of Pioneer's brass, or Mandarins brass line numbers. Then tell me there isn't a problem with 150.

They never marched they max no matter what it was.

[mgarside83]

They never marched they max no matter what it was.

Right! So if several, well most, World Class Corps can't fill their ranks when it was 128, why was it ever increased at all? For the health of the activity? If Cadets, BD and all those corps were cutting so many people and it broke their hearts so much, why don't they refer them to other corps who need the help?

Bluecoats have been referring cuts to the Trooper, or at least were 2 or 3 years ago. This certainly helped them out.

Rule changes should be made to protect and grow the corps that are struggling. Rule changes shouldn't be put in to help big established corps beat up on the smaller corps even more than they already do.

[cage]

Yes! That is exactly what I'm saying they should do.

This is where you jumped off the cliff. If corps A can only field a corps of 10 horns everyone else should have to do the same?

[SkyRyder_FMM]

The difference is, back then 100 member corps were competing against 128 member corps. Now there are 100 member corps are competing against 150 member corps. So did the rule change help the activity? No, it helped elite members of the activity.

So we are better off as an activity with those extra kids that would have walked away from the activity all together because they didn't make the cut when the limit was 128?

There have been numerous surveys, and corps have observed that when kids don't make the corps they try out for, they usually do not march anywhere. Corps do refer kids that don't make the cut to other corps. They can't force them to march someplace they do not want to. All the whining in the world about how the increase in member size to 150 won't change this fact.

So we can get more members into the activity, and fill empty bus seats, which increases revenue for a corps and lowers member dues, or we can keep the number lower, not increase the ranks of lower placing World Class or Open Class corps, ride with empty bus seats, and increase dues. That is an improvement? Please explain this to me, as it simply is not computing.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

Sigh! I never said that. And even though I've addressed the "the other numbers are in the guard" argument now over 10 times, I'll say it again. Please show me a corps with 55-60 guard or a corps with 40-50 percussion.

And I'll also again repeat this. Please add up the following current averages for todays corps... 72 horns, 28 percussion (including pit), 32 guard and 2 DM equils?........(I'll give you a hint...it's NOT "150").

72 brass (24/12/24/12)

8 - 9 snares

4 - 5 tenors

5 bass drums

12+ pit

That's 29 to 33 percussion

36 to 42 guard

2 DM plus back/sidefield conductor (not uncommon)

That's a range of 139 to 150.

Horn line numbers will increase in blocks, not onesie twosies. There is drill to consider. The drum line and guard can move a member up or down here to there without impacting the drill in the same manner, so it's easier to change numbers there (e.g., 9 snares vs. 8, 14 in the pit rather than 12). Just because the limit is 150, doesn't mean that will make sense from a show design stand point. So what if a corps only marches 144 (because the numbers worked). It doesn't mean they could not find the addition 6 members - it just means based on the show design, it may have been too much work to try to figure out how to work in an additional 6 members.

There are a lot of other factors too. Talent across the line comes into play. Ability to pay dues and make rehearsal comes into play. Life events that cause changes in plans late in the season have impacts. Lose a snare in June due to a personal issue, and it's likely too late to find a replacement. Guess what? Your 9 member snare line just became an 8 member snare line. Had it happened in January, you probably had enough other kids auditioning to replace the dropped member. If it happens late in spring training, it's likely too late.

Just because you can march 150, doesn't mean you have to. When the limit was 128, not everyone marched 128 either. Common configuration back then was 58 brass, 8 snares, 4 tenors, 5 bass, 5 cymbals, 8 pit, 32 guard, and 1 or 2 DMs. Add that up - that's 120 to 121. Move it around one or two here or there, and you may go higher or lower.

Again, you are not really making a compelling argument here. Passionate - yes. Logical or based on facts - no.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

I adressed that in my very first post. I'm tired of repeating myself. Go back and read my first post. I refuted this argument quite handily in my first post.

You did not refute anything, sorry.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

Sigh! I never said that. And even though I've addressed the "the other numbers are in the guard" argument now over 10 times, I'll say it again. Please show me a corps with 55-60 guard or a corps with 40-50 percussion.

And I'll also again repeat this. Please add up the following current averages for todays corps... 72 horns, 28 percussion (including pit), 32 guard and 2 DM equils?........(I'll give you a hint...it's NOT "150").

Show me a corps that could attract enough talent to fill a 60 person guard and actually clean it. I doubt even the Blue Devils could do that. Even more so for percussion. There is a reason lines are the size they are - balance and execution.

[txpride]

...and Bluecoats and Cavies.

Again, here is what I firmly believe the top 12 breakdown from 2010 (which wasn't much different from 2009), in TRP/MEL/BAR-EUP/TBA)

Madison 84 (24/16/24/20) [dunno about 2009]

Cavies 80 (24/16/24/16) [same in 2009]

Bluecoats 80 (24/16/24/16) [same in 2009]

Crown 80 (24/16/24/16) [same in 2009]

Blue Stars 80 (24/16/24/16) [same in 2009]

Boston 80 (24/16/24/16) [same in 2009]

BD 76 (24/16/24/12) [same in 2009]

Cadets 76 (24/14/24/14) [same in 2009]

Phantom 76 (24/16/24/12) [80 in 2009, 24/16/24/16]

SCV 76 (24/16/24/12) [same in 2009]

Blue Knights, and Glassmen, I never saw once. In 2009, I'm pretty sure BK had 76. AND I'M CERTAIN THEY ALL HAD 150.

Those with smaller (76 is small?) hornlines, choose to put their 150 elsewhere.

I'm still lost as to why you're fighting this. Even if a corps marched a hole or two at finals, it had NOTHING to do with finding enough qualified players...it had to do with finding enough qualified players to FILL A HOLE QUICKLY, FOR FINALS. Sheesh.

People have posted here "600 members auditioned for [top corps]." OK, so where are all of those 450 cuts going, PER CORPS? Some overlap (a kid gets cut from two Top 6 corps). Some march elsewhere. MOST DO NOT MARCH AT ALL.

You can't blame the corps for kids who decide to NOT march. Those same kids would decide to NOT march even if the limit were 100 per corps. People want to be part of an exclusive club, period.

Let's turn it around. If the pool WERE ACTUALLY SHRINKING (as I think you're claiming, and thus lamenting the 150 number), then the number would have to follow, or corps the caliber of Cadets would not be able to find qualified people.

There are many more societal reasons as to why the pool might be shrinking. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 150, 135, 128, or whatever. It has nothing to do with the current crop of EXCELLENT drum corps!! Somehow, the list of EXCELLENT drum corps is GROWING! The G7 might have to become the G8 or the G9 or the G10...isn't that AWESOME? Wouldn't it be great if all of the lower WC corps could somehow figure out how to make those 2500+ cuts come to their camps? WHY R U BLAMING THE 150, or the excellent corps?

Quite a few of your 2009 figures are wrong. I know this for a fact and have the DVDs to prove it. Cavies did not have 80 in 09, Boston did not have 80 in 09 and neither did Bluecoats. I know, they probably listed it as so on paper but all you have to do is find a good set like a company front where all horn players can be counted easily and my point will be proven.

Actually, I'll leave room for correction on one. Cavies were hard to count. I might be off on that one but I know I'm right about the others.

[txpride]

I made a very good argument against you on this, in a previous post in this thread. You did not respond. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it so.

It is so. Therefore, that is my response.