Those that have tried and failed...we thank you

[G-horns]

I think staff is most crucial. That, and having clearly defined goals. I think in most metro areas you have the bodies, but those with real competitive corps experience are only going to show up if the management and especially staff is top-notch, and not friends of the founders or someone who may have marched a year in the local college band that you take because they work for free and might bring some local unexperienced talent with them. Many times in the mid-sized cities, you can get "stuck" if you hire local staff, because it's a small world and unless they are respected in the activity already, you can't attract experienced members in volume because many times, people from one clique in that area don't like the people from another. The only way to solve this is to go outside of your area and get a respected non-local staff. Box five staff attracts box five membership, and I know many who travel simply because of the staff at any particular corps.

When your potential membership has more experience than those you have teaching them, then you are only going to get sub-par membership or those without any prior experience, because they don't know any better. If that is your goal and you want to build from the ground up, then great; I hope it all works for you and I'll be the first to cheer you on.

I also personally wouldn't march a slow-growth corps, and neither would anyone I know. If I'm going to give my time, sweat and dollars up, I want to go somewhere where they are shooting for the stars right out of the gate.

Of course, I never started/founded any corps so I don't have a leg to stand on. But I do know that I, or anyone I know with corps experience, wouldn't march anywhere new unless the corps had that focus and vision to go for it and hire the best national staff "what little money they have" can buy.

I respect anyone taking on this endevour, and for anyone not aiming to field a competitive corps soon and build slowly, if that works for you, then by all means, do it up! To the fledgling corps directors and "future" new corps directors- You are blessed individuals to take this feat on, and I have great admiration for you. I couldn't do it if my life depended on it.

I have to disagree with you about hiring only "top-notch" staff. Wayne Downey had to start somewhere. So did all of the other "top-notch" people. That's where having a good management team is important. Just as in business, good corps managers have to identify and hire capable qualified staff. By the same priciple, good managers fire staff that isn't doing the job - regardless of who they are.

(Here's the edit)

Good staff will be willing to take input from members who have knowledge and/or experience. Everyone is part of the team. If the staff ignores valid member input and insists on being right 110% of the time, they are not part of the team.

Shooting all your available cash on creative and instructional staff leaves nothing for travel to that big show that the corps MUST make in order to follow your "right now" plan. So what does the corps do? Go in the red just to make a show because the members expect it? Bad business. Remember what Bill Cook always preached, "Drum corps is a business."

Edited August 27, 2010 by G-horns

[84BDsop]

I think staff is most crucial. That, and having clearly defined goals. I think in most metro areas you have the bodies, but those with real competitive corps experience are only going to show up if the management and especially staff is top-notch, and not friends of the founders or someone who may have marched a year in the local college band that you take because they work for free and might bring some local unexperienced talent with them. Many times in the mid-sized cities, you can get "stuck" if you hire local staff, because it's a small world and unless they are respected in the activity already, you can't attract experienced members in volume because many times, people from one clique in that area don't like the people from another. The only way to solve this is to go outside of your area and get a respected non-local staff. Box five staff attracts box five membership, and I know many who travel simply because of the staff at any particular corps.

Box 5 staff also requires something a lot of startups don't have...$$$$.

When your potential membership has more experience than those you have teaching them, then you are only going to get sub-par membership or those without any prior experience, because they don't know any better.

I'll agree with that to a point....I have run into folks with not very much fencing experience on the strip compared to me who have turned out to be pretty good instructors....the same can happen in music.

I also personally wouldn't march a slow-growth corps, and neither would anyone I know. If I'm going to give my time, sweat and dollars up, I want to go somewhere where they are shooting for the stars right out of the gate.

Of course, I never started/founded any corps so I don't have a leg to stand on.

Let me give you an example then. SoCal Dream....the only Sr corps in SoCal....lots of people knew we existed, but also a lot didn't want to come out until they saw some success. For people my me, who was there from the first season, that gets tiresome to do the development work to the point of making finals our 2nd year at DCA and winning brass, and only THEN see new faces (from the stands, since I didn't march after 06).

But I do know that I, or anyone I know with corps experience, wouldn't march anywhere new unless the corps had that focus and vision to go for it and hire the best national staff "what little money they have" can buy.

See my first point again...and you're forgetting that a corps with money (Star) is an extreme rarity...don't use Star as a model.

[Kansan]

Which was a big problem for us.We had a dedicated core of 16-17 people and a dozen so-so's.Counting on them, people assumed we'd be able to get to 30, no problem.But the so-so's barely payed their dues,had the highest absenteeism and the least endurance in the end. Today we average 10 out of our 15 horns at rehearsal. I make plans for only 10.So we have a minicorps with 10 horns and 5 alternates.We currently have issues in our percussion section.Until we lock that down I can only guarentee a set drummer. But we now can put out a minicorps and thats what we say we have.No hoping 'warm bodies' will develope,no 'we have 35 people on paper' and no trying be someone we ain't.

That sounds so familiar.

[jeff danchik]

I think staff is most crucial. That, and having clearly defined goals. I think in most metro areas you have the bodies, but those with real competitive corps experience are only going to show up if the management and especially staff is top-notch, and not friends of the founders or someone who may have marched a year in the local college band that you take because they work for free and might bring some local unexperienced talent with them. Many times in the mid-sized cities, you can get "stuck" if you hire local staff, because it's a small world and unless they are respected in the activity already, you can't attract experienced members in volume because many times, people from one clique in that area don't like the people from another. The only way to solve this is to go outside of your area and get a respected non-local staff. Box five staff attracts box five membership, and I know many who travel simply because of the staff at any particular corps.

When your potential membership has more experience than those you have teaching them, then you are only going to get sub-par membership or those without any prior experience, because they don't know any better. If that is your goal and you want to build from the ground up, then great; I hope it all works for you and I'll be the first to cheer you on.

I also personally wouldn't march a slow-growth corps, and neither would anyone I know. If I'm going to give my time, sweat and dollars up, I want to go somewhere where they are shooting for the stars right out of the gate.

Of course, I never started/founded any corps so I don't have a leg to stand on. But I do know that I, or anyone I know with corps experience, wouldn't march anywhere new unless the corps had that focus and vision to go for it and hire the best national staff "what little money they have" can buy.

I respect anyone taking on this endevour, and for anyone not aiming to field a competitive corps soon and build slowly, if that works for you, then by all means, do it up! To the fledgling corps directors and "future" new corps directors- You are blessed individuals to take this feat on, and I have great admiration for you. I couldn't do it if my life depended on it.

Please look at the problems of this. Hire the top notch staff with what?Buy the equipment with what? Who's going to do it.No big names have stepped up yet.Its an ego buster.Just a few that have cared enough to try.It hasn't happened ever in this town.I've been involved with two of the most successful programs here and they didn't start this way either.As it has been stated before in this thread,as a business model, this activity is a losing propositon from the start.Get a bank to finance that.Get 100 people with $1,000 in dues buys you what? Horns? yes but what about drums,uniforms, and that top notch staff.At $1,000 each they are not going to accept used equipment and old band uniforms.You're not going to get financing on the equipment to stretch your costs over 5 years.Pittsburgh has a huge funding base for non profits,but none of them see this activity as charitable or unique enough to put thier money into it.Plus assuming a top notch staff will draw peaople is a risk.Look at the Project,Dave hired a nationally named team,spent big money and nobody came. He's probably still trying to recover much of his own money as a I suspect Ken B is too.This town is littered with souls that have put everything into this activity and walked away damaged.

[jeff danchik]

Money in the bank is a nice way to end. Makes getting the next season underway a little less stressful, just a little. BTW, it's Larry, not Mike.

That's going to dissappear fast,just got new lease and the County's raised the rent.

[ahquad]

I hate written word because intent is never perceived correctly. Please don't take my opinion as negative or trying to undermine anyone's efforts... I understand that great staff has to come from somewhere and many times they cut their teeth on small new corps. But even then, future genius in staff shows much future promise even at the lowest levels as they're grooming in to what they will become. I haven't seen an idiot at the lowest level become some great staff person down the line. They usually show signs of greatness even at the beginning. And my definition of "Top Notch" can vary. I don't necessarily mean bringing in the big guns. Many techs at a national level are going to be great someday, and in many cases, they'll work for peanuts and sometimes nothing to make their bones. And I understand the business side of it. I deal with start-ups all the time in the business world.

It is a catch-22 and "###### if you do - ###### if you don't" situaton all the way around. I'm not using Star as an example. I'm not even using DCI as an example, as that is a whole different beast. I couldn't imagine trying to start a corps there these days. I was involved in a DCI start-up in a staff capacity a while back, and I'm sure the issues we'd faced (the staff drove the support vehicles all night to the next show) are nothing compared to what happens today.

What I am trying to say (unsuccsessfuly, it seems) more-so I guess, is the fact that people with real recent competitive experience aren't going to flock, even in moderate numbers, to a start up DCA corps just getting it's feet off the ground, unless it is those same people behind the start up, the staff is well respected, and the vision for short-term growth is clearly defined as having a goal of getting on the field competing yesterday. I don't know of anyone who would choose a parade corps with aspirations, over a proven DCA powerhouse that can be driven to in 4-6 hours.

Heck, I don't even know what I'm saying or what my intent is, come to think of it lol.

Again, I give you guys all the credit in the world for doing what you do, and for people like Jeff who live daily with "more issues" yet still continue on with their dream year after year. It's gotta be tough and I certainly have no insight or holy grail. I can only say what I, and the large group of people I know still marching or wanting to march would do. We want to compete at the highest level on the field. It doesn't matter what classification. But I know that few people I'm in contact with would jump ship from an established corps to stay closer to home, or put the old marching shoes back on, if the staff to lead them wasn't there.

True, staffs have to start somewhere. And true, a good staff person does take ideas and vision from those more experienced, however in most groups I've been involved with, junior and senior, it isn't the norm for the staff to get that from the corps proper. That leads to the inmates running the asylum. Any program where the marching members did that... well, it became a big ego fight that in some cases still lasts to this day, even though the corps is long gone as a competitive field corps. And I've never been involved with a DCI corps where a member would even think of suggesting something to staff, at any level. If your staff is not of the highest level you can afford (<key words), then you won't get the best performers. You can survive with poor equipment. You can survive on a shoestring to get to/from shows. You can't thrive without a top-notch staff and design team. When it all comes down to it, there isn't anything in the water in one area that makes the performing members any better than others. It all comes down to the staff.

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

Oh, and my understanding on the WGI Project thing is that Dave never PAID his national team, lol. They did it because they loved it, and they put a lot of their own money in to it as well. And I do know that people DID come. At one point their entire large battery and a good portion of their front ensemble were marching top 12 DCI at the same time. And those who didn't were music majors. Many came from as far away as Connecticut. The staff brought the people. And that's a whole different ballgame, really. Getting a good drumline together is easy if the staff is there. They usually bring a lot of their students/players with them and drummers are different beasts in the first place. Give them good beats and they'll be there, and you can be very good with minimal numbers of people, if their technique and approach is solid. Putting together a full corps.... now THAT is way tougher, I'm sure.

Edited August 27, 2010 by ahquad

[contraman007]

Eric fails to mention two secret weapons Minnesota Brass uses to attract and retain talent: 1) Steak Camp 2) Ann Jones' peanut butter bars.

MMMM....Steak

[jeff danchik]

I hate written word because intent is never perceived correctly. Please don't take my opinion as negative or trying to undermine anyone's efforts... I understand that great staff has to come from somewhere and many times they cut their teeth on small new corps. But even then, future genius in staff shows much future promise even at the lowest levels as they're grooming in to what they will become. I haven't seen an idiot at the lowest level become some great staff person down the line. They usually show signs of greatness even at the beginning. And I understand the business side of it. I deal with start-ups all the time in the business world.

It is a catch-22 and "###### if you do - ###### if you don't" situaton all the way around. I'm not using Star as an example. I'm not even using DCI as an example, as that is a whole different beast. I couldn't imagine trying to start a corps their these days. I was involved in a DCI start-up in a staff capacity a while back, and I'm sure the issues we'd faced (the staff drove the support vehicles all night to the next show) are nothing compared to what happens today.

What I am trying to say (unsuccsessfuly, it seems) more-so I guess, is the fact that people with real recent competitive experience aren't going to flock, even in moderate numbers, to a start up DCA corps just getting it's feet off the ground, unless it is those same people behind the start up, the staff is well respected, and the vision for short-term growth is clearly defined as having a goal of getting on the field competing yesterday. I don't know of anyone who would choose a parade corps with aspirations, over a proven DCA powerhouse that can be driven to in 4-6 hours.

Heck, I don't even know what I'm saying or what my intent is, come to think of it lol.

Again, I give you guys all the credit in the world for doing what you do, and for people like Jeff who live daily with "more issues" yet still continue on with their dream year after year. It's gotta be tough and I certainly have no insight or holy grail. I can only say what I, and the large group of people I know still marching or wanting to march would do. We want to compete at the highest level on the field. It doesn't matter what classification. But I know that few people I'm in contact with would jump ship from an established corps to stay closer to home, or put the old marching shoes back on, if the staff to lead them wasn't there.

True, staffs have to start somewhere. And true, a good staff person does take ideas and vision from those more experienced, however in most groups I've been involved with, junior and senior, it isn't the norm for the staff to get that from the corps proper. That leads to the inmates running the asylum. Any program where the marching members did that... well, it became a big ego fight that in some cases still lasts to this day. And I've never been involved with a DCI corps where a member would even think of suggesting something to staff, at any level. If your staff is not of the highest level you can afford (<key words), then you won't get the best performers. You can survive with poor equipment. You can survive on a shoestring to get to/from shows. You can't thrive without a top-notch staff and design team. When it all comes down to it, there isn't anything in the water in one area that makes the performing members any better than others. It all comes down to the staff.

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

I have not taken offense to your comments and trually understand them.As others have said its tough to watch the fences sitters wait until you have developed.Sometimes in the back of your mind,you want to exclude these people if your program succeeds.But I have seem the arrogance of people who think they are above what you're doing but don't get involved.Some of these people I've put on their heals by offering them the keys.If you can do better, here you go.They don't take the offer and never will.But later on you'll hear their better than though comments. I asked Gary Inks at our last Alumni picnic what was the key to RC's success and it wasn't staff. It was the volunteers who did everything from fundraising to driving busses. Asked Andy Yaracs the same question and same answer.Ask anyone at Steel City and they point to the White Hats.Staff will come and go.I didn't join any group I was with for the staff,my freinds were the reason.I suspect thats the reason most people join the corps they are in.Anytime you want to chat drop me an email for my number.

[JimF-LowBari]

As for "top notch" staff, I'd say getting staff that is a good fit with the members would be more important with a start up. When Westshoremen reformed in 1974 about half the members were rookies and HS/college age. Corps BoD hired people who were used to dealing with young people (HS band staff mainly). As the corps matured and got more experience (and the corps had more $$$$) the staff level went up and we had staff who were more "demanding".

[ahquad]

As for "top notch" staff, I'd say getting staff that is a good fit with the members would be more important with a start up. When Westshoremen reformed in 1974 about half the members were rookies and HS/college age. Corps BoD hired people who were used to dealing with young people (HS band staff mainly). As the corps matured and got more experience (and the corps had more $$$$) the staff level went up and we had staff who were more "demanding".

Good approach!

Jeff, I've been lurking at DCP for many years; back to the RAMD days. I never posted and I even had a screen name when DCP formed but for the life of me, any screen name I've ever used for any forum doesn't work to sign in, and I've had tons of email addresses since DCP came out so I have no way of finding it. So I started a new one recently (one the mods changed because they said it violated the morality code or something?? When that wasn't even what the name meant, but I digress). In any case, in my lurking I've followed numerous threads about how the attitude has changed on what you say about you and your friends. Players these days follow staff; they aren't as loyal to corps. Like it or not, that's how it works. You can look around DCI and see so many players who've marched multiple corps because their loyalty is to those who design and teach them, not the corps itself. When a staff leaves for somewhere else, the players often follow. That isn't how it was in our day. But it is a whole new generation, and since my last real involvement with any performing group, it has been quite the norm for guard and drums, especially. Horns, maybe not so much.

These days, you can have the rock solid management behind the scenes making it all work, and they can be the foundation for it all, but performers are many times more loyal to the staff than the corps and the management who built it. Of course this is generational, as older folks don't do this, but those younger than I think it's normal.

I even think there is a thread on one of the DCP forums about it right now; or at least a thread got threadjacked in that direction. I was reading it last night.

In any case, I have much respect for your efforts. As much as I'd love to chat, I'm strictly armchair quarterback for the couchmen these days. I hit every show I can, because I travel nationaly for work (for the very company that built Star, no less), but my days of getting involved even at the level of chatting ideas are long gone. I've passed any torch of knowledge I may or may not have had on to the next generation, and love listening to them rant about the same szhit I used to.

Best of luck to you, and all trying to take on this task! While I normally only open my mouth to put my foot in it on rare occasion on any forum, this topic holds dear to me because it was always a dream to be involved in something at the ground level. But there is no way I could even get a taste of it at this stage of my life, or else my whole new world of today's important things in life would fall apart while I chase that dream again. Call me an addict. You don't ask an alcoholic in to happy hour, even just for the social part, right, lol?

EDIT: I can't spell from my tiny little phone keys. Why do phones even have internet capabilities if you can't type on the dang things?

Edited August 27, 2010 by ahquad