Corps Directors

[tomgolf8]

How about giving the posters you disagree with a little more benefit of the doubt? Just because you disagree with some of the ideas being discussed doesn't mean you need to dismiss them by implying they are naive and simple-minded. Too-high dues may exclude lots of people of all sexes and colors.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to put unqualified people in charge of corps. Are you suggesting that there are no people capable of running corps who are not currently directors?

In any case, the problem (if you agree there is one) is more complicated than just the director level. My opinion is that if demographics of the leadership and senior staff doesn't match that of the corps, or isn't trending that way, then something is wrong. A fair system would not, balanced over time, produce senior staff that is whiter and maler than the membership. I feel like multiple people on here are saying "just try harder, if you want it so bad". We're not talking about individuals here. Any particular individual who sets his or her sights on being a corps director is likely to fail. But if you look at the demographics across the entire activity, the trend ought to be towards matching the diversity of the membership. If that isn't happening, we need to try to figure out why it isn't, and not just throw our hands up and blame the people who aren't in charge for not trying hard enough.

I am not suggesting there are people qualified to run corps that are not. There are very few positions for Corps Directors. There are even fewer that are open. The question was posed, people are suggesting there is a problem. I am just asking for some sort of fact that shows DCI corps, DCA Corps are keeping anyone out of the mix due to whatever reason other than qualifications.

And yes, there are probably more white men in leadership positions than other catagories. There are probably more white people on staff. But being in and around this activity since the late 70's, I can honestly not think of one time where I have heard or had it suggested someone not get a position at any level based on anything other than ability.

I can't explain the numbers. All I can explain are my experiences with the different corps I have been around. And every organization I have been a member of has truely been like a family. There is no color or gender or religion. There are family members period. On top of that, I can't think of one person I have been involved with in this activity that would have tolerated any of that MOST OF ALL ME!!!!!!.

Some organization struggle for membership. Some struggle to grow the staff. Anyone who is willing to put forth the effort has always been welcome. I have always told my members to not let dues be the reason you don't march. One way or another, we will find a way to raise the money to get you on the field. But they will have to put forth the effort. Some do, some don't.

Like Mr. Boo said, it is a privilage to march drum corps. It takes sacrifice to do it sometimes. But if you are willing to work for it, you can do it regardless of your background.

And yes, I implied some are naive. And lo and behold, they had not been on a staff or administration of a corps. Is being naive wrong? Absolutely not. Do I dismiss their concerns because of it? Maybe, but I also try to help them gain what they seek. We need fresh blood in this activity from all directions. Staff, admin, cooks, equipment guru's. You're not going to get a lot of 70 year old rookies although there are a few. All I ask is that you base your opinions in some sort of fact based on experience and data rather than throw out some sort of sweeping generality based on feel, hope and change.

[tomgolf8]

I don't want to keep belaboring the point, but I just wanted to be clear about my arguments. I think there are ways in which the existing structure of an activity or organization can create unintentional barriers based on race and sex. I don't think drum corps has a bias problem. I think drum corps, at least for members, is a great example of being exceptionally open to anyone who's interested. But in lots of areas in life, cultural differences, the type of friendships people form, personality differences, differences in manners, etc which are for whatever reason correlated to sex and race, all have an impact on levels of promotion and success that tend to preserve existing patterns. I don't think drum corps is immune to those effects, and I don't think it can be fully fair if we're satisfied with being free of intentional bias.

I am sure we have been walking a fine line in this thread. I want to ask this and I would love serious answers because these will be serious questions.

How can we identify "unintentional" barriers. Seriously? If they are unintentional, then that organization probably won't even know they exist. If that be the case, how would someone from outside the organization know they exist?

Secondly, how or who would legislate how that would be handled? DCI, Federal Government?

I kind of get where your going with this, sort of. But would you care to peel that onion a bit deeper?

[shostahoosier]

I'm really saddened and quite shocked by many of the ideas posted in this thread.

I thought DCI was more open minded and accepting of minorities (woman, ethnicity, homosexuals, even handicapped!) but now I wonder...

Anyway, if anything I think the activity is moving away from what little diversity it had thanks to rapidly rising corps fees (you know it cant ALL be attributed to "gasoline prices") and boring art house shows.

If the status quo is fine for you, so be it...but dont be surprised at dwindling interest and rising ticket prices to make up for it.

Edited September 10, 2010 by shostahoosier

[AlexL]

I'm really saddened and quite shocked by many of the ideas posted in this thread.

I thought DCI was more open minded and accepting of minorities (woman, ethnicity, homosexuals, even handicapped!) but now I wonder...

Anyway, if anything I think the activity is moving away from what little diversity it had thanks to rapidly rising corps fees (you know it cant ALL be attributed to "gasoline prices") and boring art house shows.

If the status quo is fine for you, so be it...but dont be surprised at dwindling interest and rising ticket prices to make up for it.

Give me a break. Nothing in here has been not 'accepting of minorities' . Drum corps is not going to represent the american population as a whole. Its a subset of the marching band world, which itself does not represent the american population as a whole (overall its much more white, much more male, especially once you focus in on only the brass and percussion sections, which are overwhelmingly male in most marching bands).

And are corps to blame for rising corps fees? For the mostpart, no. Blame the dramatic increases in fuel costs. Blame costs of housing going up and availability of said housing going down.

Being accepting doesnt mean creating special opportunities to try to create artificial 'balance'. All of this is trying to create an issue where there is none. As you sad, you 'thought dci was more open minded and accepting'. It is.

Edited September 10, 2010 by AlexL

[soccerguy315]

In any case, the problem (if you agree there is one) is more complicated than just the director level. My opinion is that if demographics of the leadership and senior staff doesn't match that of the corps, or isn't trending that way, then something is wrong. A fair system would not, balanced over time, produce senior staff that is whiter and maler than the membership. I feel like multiple people on here are saying "just try harder, if you want it so bad". We're not talking about individuals here. Any particular individual who sets his or her sights on being a corps director is likely to fail. But if you look at the demographics across the entire activity, the trend ought to be towards matching the diversity of the membership. If that isn't happening, we need to try to figure out why it isn't, and not just throw our hands up and blame the people who aren't in charge for not trying hard enough.

in my opinion, you have yet to prove your fundamental point, which is that demographics of the leadership and senior staff doesn't match that of the corps. You are trying to get people to work on fixing a problem, but it has not been established that there is a problem needing to be fixed.

Edited September 10, 2010 by soccerguy315

[Michael Boo]

Dave Gibbs is the Director of the Blue Devils, arguably the strongest organization in DCI... He was the Drum Major in 1979 and 1980... He was our drill tech in 1981 and 1982... He moved to the guard and design team in 1983 and later after learning the ropes became the director... I think this is EXACTLY what Michael was talking about!

You are correct, sir!

[shostahoosier]

Give me a break. Nothing in here has been not 'accepting of minorities' . Drum corps is not going to represent the american population as a whole. Its a subset of the marching band world, which itself does not represent the american population as a whole (overall its much more white, much more male, especially once you focus in on only the brass and percussion sections, which are overwhelmingly male in most marching bands).

Give ME a break. Did you even read what I wrote?

And if you look around, marching bands in high school are much more diverse than DCI (then again so are marching band shows), so if you are measuring it as a "subset", (I'm not) then fail there.

And are corps to blame for rising corps fees? For the mostpart, no. Blame the dramatic increases in fuel costs. Blame costs of housing going up and availability of said housing going down.

The price of gasoline peaked in 2008 and dropped dramatically. Its has risen again slowly but adjusted for inflation...its about the same people were paying in the early 80s. I dont see corps fees decreasing though...but I do continue to see longer national tours, new uniforms, electronics equipment, crazy props and fancy "designers".

I would tell corps the same thing I would tell a friend if they constantly needed money for gas: "Dont drive so much".

Being accepting doesnt mean creating special opportunities to try to create artificial 'balance'. All of this is trying to create an issue where there is none. As you sad, you 'thought dci was more open minded and accepting'. It is.

I didnt make any mention of "balance". I dont think that DCI needs to "even out" its demographics, but I think there are things that could done to attract more people.

That's the point I'm getting at...so you can slowly back away from your "affirmative action argument" trigger. thanks!

[soccerguy315]

Give ME a break. Did you even read what I wrote?

And if you look around, marching bands in high school are much more diverse than DCI (then again so are marching band shows), so if you are measuring it as a "subset", (I'm not) then fail there.

DCI corps are not representative of marching bands... they draw from the best of the best.

Do you think the bands in BOA are diverse? I admittedly don't know the answer to this, but I would be willing to bet these ensembles are heavily white and from upper middle class school districts. I would also bet that their brass and percussion sections are predominately male.

[Jeff Ream]

this is a great thread...truly outstanding job by the OP here.

Both NFL and NCAA Football teams have this issue as far as minorities....forget about women coaches...they are far from being that progressive.

One of my favorite II/III corps directors was Mary from the Bandettes. I'm sure she has been mentioned in this thread. I would say II/III was FAR more diverse during the 1990s than WC has ever been. And how's DCA as far as diversity now that we are asking. Is it the olde white man's club?

not sure about directors, but many corps have female staff members

[Jeff Ream]

Wow...a personal attack from a moderator. Wow.

I asked a simple question now that this issue was brought to light. Thought we should include the senior circuit in the discussion. That's it.

It was NOT fodder for a personal attack. Especially from you.

no offense Tom, but you do go out of your way to take shots at DCA over here, while NEVER going to the DCA forums to ask your questions.