How does this community feel about fielding cymbals?

[Jeff Ream]

with all of the cymbal talent on display at WGI, there's definitely people out there that could do it and do it right.

sadly, the continued killing off of cymbals in DCI will probably slowly trickle over to WGI as well....unless people use them just "to fill dots" as people said here. I see no educational value in that approach

If you are going to have a cymbal line, you have to use them both visually and musically. I see a lot of cymbal lines that are lot of flash, but they don't do that much in terms of color. When they play it is usually the same style of crash in various volumes. The better lines make a ton of creative use of styles with the cymbals that is great to hear as well as see.

If a line doesn't have the right direction, they probably should be in te pit.

I love a good cymbal line, but it doesn't bother me at all when all of he cymbal sound comes from the pit.

[jplattSCV]

I'll take a stab at this one...

Complexity - A concert percussionist will spend about the same amount of time perfecting a good cymbal crash as a good snare roll. The complexity of good cymbal technique is extremely demanding, not to mention that it requires a tremendous amount of physical stamina in the field context.

Notes - Sometimes playing more notes is actually easier than trying to find the E after 2 and having it line up exactly within the bazillion notes from the rest of the battery or a split melodic part. More is not always harder.

One of the reasons we see fewer and fewer cymbal lines is because it's so very hard to do well. The bar has been set very high and it's hard to compete with the likes of SCV and others. I sadly cut cymbals from my HS line just because I couldn't get enough players who could do it well. And if it's not going to be done well, why do it?

The "more notes is not always harder" reminds me of my first time playing in a county orchestra percussion section. At the time, I had plenty of chops but my reading skills were very very poor. I was young. We played a piece that had me playing a very sparsely spaced set of cymbal crashes and orchestra bell notes. There were literally hundreds of measures of rest between notes. It was a fast tempo piece as well.

We only rehearsed the piece a couple of times and I had class and missed all of the parts where we played that particular movement.

All I had to do was count tons of rests and play a few notes periodically.

At the concert, I basically walked back and forth picking up cymbals and mallets whilst missing every entrance and not playing a single note. It was horrifyingly embarrassing at the time.

I laugh now.

[2000Cadet]

so you obviously didn't read my earlier post. there is so much more to what a cymbal can do than just crash.

taps, ziechens, crunks, clanks, slide chokes...and the 5000 other variables and options available, do a lot more musically than taking a mallet and hitting a cymbal on a mounted stand.

Ya know, if i made brass comments about technique, not being a brass player, I know you and manyothers would jump all over me. As someone who has played and taught marching cymbals, take my word and the many words of others here with actual experience and background, that really, if you don't understand, dont reply to just the sound botes, read the detailed posts or go find the online materials i mentioned earlier that could truly educate you about something that when done well, is phenomenal and can add so much musically.

It was a joke, hence the comment I made right after that. Relax.

I read all of everyone's posts as far as the pros of having cymbals on the field, and I understood them. It still doesn't change my opinion about how they're still serving their purpose in the pit. Reminds me of a comment a percussion judge made during a cymbal crash in the ballad of Cavies' 2003 show. He specifically talked about the technique and how great it was, and I thought it was a great comment. I mean it's not like I'm against cymbals. They do serve a purpose. And I just happen to believe their purpose is served in the pit.

And as far as brass comments are concerned, they wouldn't bother me too much because I make comments on brass technique all the time, even with the shows I've marched, so try again.

I'd like to know why many drum corps don't use cymbal players on the field anymore. Perhaps that could clear this up a little.

Edited November 6, 2010 by 2000Cadet

[Jeff Ream]

It was a joke, hence the comment I made right after that. Relax.

I read all of everyone's posts as far as the pros of having cymbals on the field, and I understood them. It still doesn't change my opinion about how they're still serving their purpose in the pit. Reminds me of a comment a percussion judge made during a cymbal crash in the ballad of Cavies' 2003 show. He specifically talked about the technique and how great it was, and I thought it was a great comment. I mean it's not like I'm against cymbals. They do serve a purpose. And I just happen to believe their purpose is served in the pit.

And as far as brass comments are concerned, they wouldn't bother me too much because I make comments on brass technique all the time, even with the shows I've marched, so try again.

I'd like to know why many drum corps don't use cymbal players on the field anymore. Perhaps that could clear this up a little.

I dont know specifically why, But I can think of a few reasons:

1) many visual designers find them to be a pain in the ### for a variety of reasons

2) too many percussion guys feel if you arent playing rides, why bother? Which is a shame, because with more drum ste sthan ever, and their ride parts coming thru the mics, you hear too much of em

3) while quality techs are out there, a lot of guys writing dont have the cymbal background to write, and won't hand over the reins to the tech to fill in the gaps

4) many people sadly feel as you do...people with legit percussion degrees, yet no real understanding of how marching cymbals can be used

5) the old thought process cymbal players are those that cant do anything else. maybe at the high school level, yet I see many HS programs with outstanding cymbal sections....and even better, many of the are filled with woodwind people.

6) IMO, the judging community doesnt know them well enough, and ergo, gives no reward for them. We all know SCV's plate line is outstanding...and man, how many SCV tapes have leaked out where you never hear them mentioned once. how ####### sad is that?

[2000Cadet]

I dont know specifically why, But I can think of a few reasons:

1) many visual designers find them to be a pain in the ### for a variety of reasons

2) too many percussion guys feel if you arent playing rides, why bother? Which is a shame, because with more drum ste sthan ever, and their ride parts coming thru the mics, you hear too much of em

3) while quality techs are out there, a lot of guys writing dont have the cymbal background to write, and won't hand over the reins to the tech to fill in the gaps

4) many people sadly feel as you do...people with legit percussion degrees, yet no real understanding of how marching cymbals can be used

5) the old thought process cymbal players are those that cant do anything else. maybe at the high school level, yet I see many HS programs with outstanding cymbal sections....and even better, many of the are filled with woodwind people.

6) IMO, the judging community doesnt know them well enough, and ergo, gives no reward for them. We all know SCV's plate line is outstanding...and man, how many SCV tapes have leaked out where you never hear them mentioned once. how ####### sad is that?

Maybe this is the primary reason they're not used by many corps on the field anymore.

[Jeff Ream]

and all of those reasons are a) lame and b) suck.

it just shows that IMO, the visual rules all and people arent truly concerned about education

Edited November 6, 2010 by Jeff Ream

[garfield]

The "more notes is not always harder" reminds me of my first time playing in a county orchestra percussion section. At the time, I had plenty of chops but my reading skills were very very poor. I was young. We played a piece that had me playing a very sparsely spaced set of cymbal crashes and orchestra bell notes. There were literally hundreds of measures of rest between notes. It was a fast tempo piece as well.

We only rehearsed the piece a couple of times and I had class and missed all of the parts where we played that particular movement.

All I had to do was count tons of rests and play a few notes periodically.

At the concert, I basically walked back and forth picking up cymbals and mallets whilst missing every entrance and not playing a single note. It was horrifyingly embarrassing at the time.

I laugh now.

Been there, done that.

I laugh now, too.

Great story.

[garfield]

Perhaps if the percussion "feature" was more of a concert piece, showcasing more of the subtle possibilities of the battery AND pit, more judges (and fans) would come to appreciate the various sounds good writing can produce. Sadly, most drum features today are about more notes, faster playing, oddball meters (I'm thinking Ditty8 here, although I love it), and mostly showcasing the battery.

As an old battery guy I appreciate the solos, but too few in, and above, the stands get exposure to what a whole battery and pit can produce.

[cymtech]

something to think about:

Why doesnt the pit cover the cymbal parts/bass parts/snare parts/whatever?

each instrument has a skill set. while one person could easily pick up a pair of crash cymbals and play them correctly, you have to realize that they are responsible for like 40,000 other things in the pit as well. i know that when i was in pit in high school, anything i didnt have to haul around was a good thing in my book.

also, when the drum judge is on the field and hes hanging with battery, its an awesome effect to have the cymbal line out there. he cant hear the pit cymbals... but he can hear the cymbal line. weve gotten some hilarious judges comments over the years... all positive.

[scottgordon]

Most spectators LOVE to watch a flashy cymbal line. So when I hear designers say "they aren't needed", it sounds like they are saying that pleasing spectators isn't necessary.