If VFW had allowed change....

[Michael Boo]

...And the Midwest Combine wasn't related at all to dreams of artistic freedom but was merely a power grab to screw over veterans-groups officials who didn't play along with the Combine leaders' huge egos and genuflect when the Combine guys would walk into meetings with their big cigars and matching brass-buttoned blazers.

Determination: Believing in the Midwest Combine

Please click on the above link and read the article.

Your statement is incredibly jaundiced. I agree the Midwest Combine wasn't related to dreams of artistic freedom...It was related to dreams of economic freedom from the upper level power structure of the veterans' organizations that had long before made the decision that a corps traveling halfway (or more) across the country should be awarded peanuts for their efforts. The corps that won got the most money, and then the winnings decreased dramatically with each position, with the veterans' organizations keeping the vast bulk of the winnings.

I had heard from corps directors from that era that what their corps "won" from coming in first didn't even come near to cover the expense of just the transportation to the show.

I agree with you that there were huge egos involved...They were owned by the people at the top of the committees that made the rules and ran the veterans' organizations show. The corps directors didn't want anyone to genuflect, but they did want those in power to show the respect due the kids that were working their butts off for peanuts.

[glory]

It's fun to 'what-if', but I think the wanna-be 'artistes' within the activity then were drooling to worm their way into a leadership role and thence mold the kids into some sort of the vision they had always harbored of "show-biz legitimacy" and dreams of "respect as an artform" from those they were hoping would include them into the professional and quasi-professional arts community.

I recall those days; they'd be name-dropping all over the place for years if some established entertainment figure should happen upon the activity and rub elbows with them, and they'd forever be working towards getting a nod of approval from them.

And the Midwest Combine wasn't related at all to dreams of artistic freedom but was merely a power grab to screw over veterans-groups officials who didn't play along with the Combine leaders' huge egos and genuflect when the Combine guys would walk into meetings with their big cigars and matching brass-buttoned blazers.

Isn't it refreshing to find on DCP an alternative view of drum corps in which the 70 and 80s weren't the golden age after all?

HH

Edited December 28, 2010 by glory

[Michael Boo]

Isn't it refreshing to find on DCP an alternative view of drum corps in which the 70 and 80s weren't the golden age after all?

HH

The golden age of drum corps.

[FrankBeMe]

Growing up, my dad got VFW magazine and the October issue had the results of VFW Nationals. It was called the Million Dollar Pageant of Drums. All the results were in there for corps, bands, drill teams, color guards etc with the prize money given out according to placement. I think the highest 1st place money for a corps was $1200. Of course, the total prize money for all groups didn't come close to $1,000,000, or even $50,000.

In 1971, the last big VFW Nationals in Dallas, Madison couldn't do their costumes and dancing. Cavaliers didn't go at all...they went to Legion Nationals in Houston instead. In 72, the only DCI finalists who went to VFW were Cavaliers, Kilties, Argonne Rebels and Bridgemen. From then on, very few big names went and eventually VFW would end the drum corps portion of their contest and concentrate mainly on bands and drill teams.

When we went to Legion Nationals in 71, we went straight down from Menominee to Houston with no shows on the way. That's just how it was then. 10 jr corps showed up...9 made finals. We were the smallest corps there and at the finale we stood between Argonne Rebels and Hawthorne Caballeros. I don't think we went past either one's drumline we were so small.

Shows had already changed enough that the VFW felt it had to ban things that Madison did during their show, which did hurt their placement. VFW was pretty hardline conservative....and prohibiting the new show design was all they could do....they weren't going to change. Corps could dance and skip and wear costumes all season long until VFW Nationals...there they couldn't do what they had done all summer. VFW wasn't going to change. I think Legion wasn't as conservative as VFW. In scoring, DCI used Legion rules the first couple years that included 30 points for total GE.

[oldskl3rings]

Determination: Believing in the Midwest Combine

Please click on the above link and read the articl

Your statement is incredibly jaundiced. I agree the Midwest Combine wasn't related to dreams of artistic freedom...It was related to dreams of economic freedom from the upper level power structure of the veterans' organizations that had long before made the decision that a corps traveling halfway (or more) across the country should be awarded peanuts for their efforts. The corps that won got the most money, and then the winnings decreased dramatically with each position, with the veterans' organizations keeping the vast bulk of the winnings.

I had heard from corps directors from that era that what their corps "won" from coming in first didn't even come near to cover the expense of just the transportation to the show.

I agree with you that there were huge egos involved...They were owned by the people at the top of the committees that made the rules and ran the veterans' organizations show. The corps directors didn't want anyone to genuflect, but they did want those in power to show the respect due the kids that were working their butts off for peanuts.

I still have the program pictured in the article.

[Michael Boo]

I still have the program pictured in the article.

I've never seen the entire program. I'm guessing you were there. Did you sense a paradigm shift at the show?

[FrankBeMe]

I've never seen the entire program. I'm guessing you were there. Did you sense a paradigm shift at the show?

Did you ever see the libretto from the 1971 Cavie's show that they passed out in the stands?

[Jeff Ream]

And a more modern twist on the question, what if DCI never ket any key pass in 1999? Would we still have amps and electronics? My guess is no, since switching to band instruments opened the floodgate to switching other elements to band.

amps would still have gotten by, and eventually the electronics too.

[Michael Boo]

Did you ever see the libretto from the 1971 Cavie's show that they passed out in the stands?

No. I saw my first drum corps show in 1972 and didn't see another one until 1974, three months before I joined The Cavaliers.

[BRASSO]

I too have wondered... not so much all the VFW/AL stuff, but the military connection itself and drum corps.

Would crowds have dwindled or swelled if a military aspect had been retained?

Would membership have dwindled or swelled if a military aspect had been retained?

It's pretty clear that individuals within the VFW/AL booched the program, but we are a proud and patriotic country - would that have made a difference?

My guess, the crowd size would be about the same as it is today, with the crowd and the corps membership different than what we generally have today. The Corps would look and sound different as well. The Drum Corps activity was a niche activity with a relatively small base of participants and devotees back in pre DCI Days. My guess, it would have remained the small niche activity as it is today. The Europeon model of the Military Tatoo might have found favor here in America. It would no doubt has become Americanized, and perhaps more " hip " in style and in music, visual, etc but with the military and patriotism core influences retained, imo. The crowds for the Military Tatoo in Europe tend to mirror in size the DCI Drum Corps we have here in the States. So I think the crowd size woould be about the same, or perhaps just a tad larger. But it's all speculation really.

I do think it is a good question to ponder about. I have thought about how things might have been different as well from time to time.

Edited December 28, 2010 by BRASSO